Attention: Athiests. Proof g-d exists based on logic!!!

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I think I’m a little behind the curve on this topic but after looking at the site and poking around several of the steps it just seem to pigeon hole you into selecting the answer the designer of the site wants you to select. If you select the wrong one then it goes back and tells you to reselect it which has already been mentioned but I had it on my mind and needed to say it anyway. 🙂
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Angel7:
All im Trying to do is to get someone who does not believe in G-d. To think Logically, and to start thinking, don’t seek to prove us wrong, but seek the real answer, and the Truth.
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Despite being atheistic, I I quite often find myself thinking about the possibility that God exists and try to come up with reasons why it may or may not be true. I can never seem to come up with an answer one way or the other besides the idea of a god or gods goes against everything I hold to be true. There are a great deal of things that can’t be explained that I don’t know the answer to but at the same time I’m prefectly happy not “knowing” the answer.

To me the idea of God isn’t logical, for me it’s completely illogical, I really don’t see how people can just believe in something like that, regardless if it’s catholic, christian, islam, or any of the other religions out there. I can’t think my way logically to believing in the existance of God if the whole idea is completely illogical to me.

For example, I do think Jesus was a real person but I can’t bring myself to the conclusion that a supernatural all power being was his father because that’s not logically possible. A new life is created when a man and a woman have some sex and the egg gets fertilized by the sperm. 9 months later if all goes well a healthy kid pops out. If someone today claimed they suddenly became pregnant without having sex or being artificially fertilized she’s be called crazy. As soon as that kid was born a DNA test would be run to see who the fater was. Biologically speaking it’s impossible for a human child to be born without 2 sets of DNA, at least so far as I’ve ever known.

From my perspective the bible was written by several people spanning several centuries. There are alot of good stories and many hold historical value. I think people needed something to believe in and to explain the world around them which is fine because at the time, that was pretty much the main source of all that was happening in the world. People experienced things they couldn’t explain or understand and they attributed it to a supernatural being of some sort which took the form of many different gods with all kinds of stories (depending on what their culture believed) to give them an explanation of the world so that they could understand it.

From my perspective the origins of most religions stem from 1 of 3 things; superstition, power, control, or a combination of the three. When I look at things like the Catholic church (and I only use it as an example because it’s the big dog on the block right now) I see the most powerful organization on the planet when it comes to getting people to do what it wants. I see something that has somewhere around 1 billion followers and think to myself that no one would possibly give that up willingly. The vatican is one of the most awe inspiring buildings in the world. It’s a castle built for a king of kings, a king with a billion followers that look to his word his word as though God himself were speaking, seemingly without question. That’s real power and that scares the **** out of me.

Now, I know I got a bit off track there but one thing led to another. 🙂 Anyway back to the original point I was trying to make. The whole idea of a god flies in the face of anything that I consider logical.

Now if there’s a creator out there so be it. Personally I’ll never know so I’m not going to waste energy devoting my life to something like that. Realistically no one will ever know because if it did exist it would be so impossibly unfathomable to even consider how such a being even could exists, I don’t think anyone could really get their heads around it beyond just the statement that something like that exists. Another example; they say the universe is something like 14 billion years old. Sure I can say the number and I know that’s a long time but in my mind I can’t really imagine how long of a time that really is because if I live to be 100 I’ll be lucky. Now try to imagine a being exists that created such a place, it’s impossible to even fathom it beyond the basic concept.

Beyond the act of putting words into it, I can’t really imagine such a thing in all its vastness and power. And even if i could or it could possibly be proven, the universe has been around a loooooooong time and getting along just fine without us. Then homo sapiens as a species appeared MAYBE 500,000 years give or take. That’s just the blink of an eye on cosmological time. The concept of gods as far as I can tell only even started 3-6 thousand years ago. Even if it were all true, we are just one little dot, not even a grain of sand on a beach in the vastness of the universe, so insignificant when compared to the scope and size of what we call reality, why would such an all powerful being even care about what happens on this planet or what anyone on it believes or doesn’t believe?
 
John92 said:
Why are so many atheists like this?
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Because they are non-believers, do not believe in God and therefore do not fear God.

You can only hope to meet nice atheists who hopefully do not blaspheme so much to the extent that you just do not want to do anything with them again.

A believer is motivated by God; a non-believer is motivated by the enemy of God. Just be aware that you are not dealing with just anyone but the principality, the power of the world and the anti-God.
 
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ "
4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:1-4)

I will be getting flak for saying this but I thought I just say it:

Do not entertain the Devil. Eve did. Adam did not take his responsibility as a husband and allowed a stranger talking to his wife. He himself succumbed to the temptation. He should just hit the snake for good – it has no business giving proposition to his wife. He did not and received the consequent of entertaining the Devil.

Don’t we see something familiar when someone comes up and propose to us that there is no God? Does it not remind us of the serpent and what he did to Eve?

So do not entertain the devil. If you must, prepare yourself – asking for the guidance and the protection of God or say prayers or something like the coverage of the precious blood of Jesus. Because the power of the Devil will have far reaching consequence to our own faith if we do not turn to God for help and to protect us against his (Devil) trickery and lies.

God bless.
 
Angel7 said:
All im Trying to do is to get someone who does not believe in G-d. To think Logically, and to start thinking, don’t seek to prove us wrong, but seek the real answer
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If you want people to think logically, you risk the possibility that they will show that your views are illogical. It’s unfair to say “think logically as long as you don’t argue against what I’m saying.”

Bad apologetics does Christianity a lot of damage.

Edwin
 
Reuben_J said:
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ "
4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:1-4)I will be getting flak for saying this but I thought I just say it:

Do not entertain the Devil. Eve did. Adam did not take his responsibility as a husband and allowed a stranger talking to his wife. He himself succumbed to the temptation. He should just hit the snake for good – it has no business giving proposition to his wife. He did not and received the consequent of entertaining the Devil.

Don’t we see something familiar when someone comes up and propose to us that there is no God? Does it not remind us of the serpent and what he did to Eve?

So do not entertain the devil. If you must, prepare yourself – asking for the guidance and the protection of God or say prayers or something like the coverage of the precious blood of Jesus. Because the power of the Devil will have far reaching consequence to our own faith if we do not turn to God for help and to protect us against his (Devil) trickery and lies.

God bless.
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To a lot of people–not just unbelievers but believers who think that since God created our minds He must mean us to use them–what you are saying amounts to an admission that Christianity is false. You don’t mean it that way, of course. But if things were as you say, there is no way I could believe in Christianity. If the Faith is that fragile, isn’t it a lot more likely that it’s false than that logical thinking amounts to an elaborate plot by Satan?

So yes. You’re going to get flak. Consider this the first salvo. If Fr. Brown were to hear you he would probably conclude that you were really a thief disguising yourself as a good Catholic. I know better, having heard this sort of thing from Protestants for years. But Chesterton misled me into thinking I could expect better from Catholics.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
To a lot of people–not just unbelievers but believers who think that since God created our minds He must mean us to use them–what you are saying amounts to an admission that Christianity is false. You don’t mean it that way, of course. But if things were as you say, there is no way I could believe in Christianity. If the Faith is that fragile, isn’t it a lot more likely that it’s false than that logical thinking amounts to an elaborate plot by Satan?

So yes. You’re going to get flak. Consider this the first salvo. If Fr. Brown were to hear you he would probably conclude that you were really a thief disguising yourself as a good Catholic. I know better, having heard this sort of thing from Protestants for years. But Chesterton misled me into thinking I could expect better from Catholics.

Edwin
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This is sensitive subject and I understand your outrage.

I think you have not read my post in depth and listen to it. It is easier to react to something we already percieved we don’t like. Please read at my post again.

I was saying we need God to help us when dealing with subject that questioning our own faith otherwise don’t do it. What’s wrong with that? Do not engage if you are not prepared. Prepare only with God by your side.

You are caught up by my rhetoric.
 
Reuben_J said:
This is sensitive subject and I understand your outrage.

I think you have not read my post in depth and listen to it. It is easier to react to something we already percieved we don’t like. Please read at my post again.

I was saying we need God to help us when dealing with subject that questioning our own faith otherwise don’t do it. What’s wrong with that? Do not engage if you are not prepared. Prepare only with God by your side.

You are caught up by my rhetoric.
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Yes, and I admit that this is because I heard this message from my family all the time, and it fostered a great deal of fear when it came to exploring the truth.

I did overreact. But please consider that atheists and other skeptics would react the same way I did, but with far more anger and less understanding. You aren’t doing the Faith any favors by posting this. You don’t understand what it sounds like. Why use rhetoric that will cause people to be “caught up” into the impression that you’re afraid of thinking?

I take your point about the need for spiritual maturity in approaching these issues. But you could have worded it differently.

Edwin
 
Reuben_J said:
And BTW, you don’t mean that, do you?
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Which part? “Misled” was too strong. I read Chesterton and thought, “Wow! This is so different from the fearful, anti-rational way I have been taught to approach the Faith. Catholicism is cool!” To be fair, I did already know about things like the Index and I’d read some Newman, so it’s not as if I didn’t know that this attitude was around in Catholicism. Nor can I say that the impression I got from Chesterton was entirely false. But when one has learned to love Catholicism on the basis of Dante and Chesterton and Flannery O’Connor and Tolkien, this forum can be extremely frustrating (because the attitudes are so reminiscent of everything I was fleeing in conservative/fundamentalist Protestantism).

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Yes, and I admit that this is because I heard this message from my family all the time, and it fostered a great deal of fear when it came to exploring the truth.

I did overreact. But please consider that atheists and other skeptics would react the same way I did, but with far more anger and less understanding. You aren’t doing the Faith any favors by posting this. You don’t understand what it sounds like. Why use rhetoric that will cause people to be “caught up” into the impression that you’re afraid of thinking?

I take your point about the need for spiritual maturity in approaching these issues. But you could have worded it differently.

Edwin
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You are not new here. I used to admire some of your posts though admittedly I have not interacted with you.

This one time you disappoint me.
 
Reuben_J said:
You are not new here. I used to admire some of your posts though admittedly I have not interacted with you.

This one time you disappoint me.
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I was overly irascible–not for the first time. But I expect to disappoint people occasionally:D

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Which part? “Misled” was too strong. I read Chesterton and thought, “Wow! This is so different from the fearful, anti-rational way I have been taught to approach the Faith. Catholicism is cool!” To be fair, I did already know about things like the Index and I’d read some Newman, so it’s not as if I didn’t know that this attitude was around in Catholicism. Nor can I say that the impression I got from Chesterton was entirely false. But when one has learned to love Catholicism on the basis of Dante and Chesterton and Flannery O’Connor and Tolkien, this forum can be extremely frustrating (because the attitudes are so reminiscent of everything I was fleeing in conservative/fundamentalist Protestantism).

Edwin
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This being postscript.

No, it was not about Chesterton. It was about you and me, remember?
 
John92 said:
Why are so many atheists like this?
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Because were sick of such obvious attempts to fool people.
You read authors and websites who agree with you, and do everything you can to avoid reading something else - by, for example, complaining about web-design or calling the writer a “12-year-old” or what have you.
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I agree that that particular website isn’t very good but yeah.
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That website’s author has no idea about the things he’s talking about.
E.g. scientific laws, laws of mathematics/logic, and moral laws are three distinctive and quite different things, yet he uses them in the same context. I might add jurisdictional laws as a forth meaning of the term “law”, those are not mentioned there, perhaps because it is too obvious that they are far from “absolute”.
Which brings us to the next point. What does “absolute” mean when applied to different thing like morals and laws of nature? The same? How?
The questions asked make heavy use of the bifurcation fallacy, they basically follow this pattern:

Depsite what theories have been made in history about the shape of the Earth, what do you think about the shape of the Earth?

[Earth was always a sphere] → next question
[Earth is flat] → you’re stupid, go to disney.com

Do you think the shape of the Earth has changed through time?
[Yes] → That contradicts your first answer, stupid, go back or exit
[No] -->next question

🤷
 
Contarini said:
And what would that mean? Insofar as humans are never perfectly logical, this would be true. I.e., God is more logical than we are.

But there isn’t something called “human logic.” There’s just logic, which exists supremely and perfectly in the mind of God.

Edwin
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From my understanding, logic is a means in itself to understand new ideas from premises. However, humans are flawed in their knowledge of logic and so will often times bring in personal bias as well as human ignorance. To say that God is more logical than we implies that we understand God to use similar logic. I would contest, how do we know?

God works in mysterious ways as I have often been taught. This lesson tends to not stick with me when I demand, due to my own weaknesses and arrogance, that my logic can derive God’s reasoning with enough information. Often times, my own logic falls short and the only explanation is that God loves. When I open up my heart to God’s love, my questions are answered even when my mind fails to understand. This does not mean I do not use my intellect. Far from it. It is my intellectual discovery that there is a greater intellect and that love taps into that.

Thus, in my humble opinion, there is a very distinct and powerful difference between God’s logic and human logic. Unless we can love as God does, I cannot see how we can call the logic we use to be the same logic as God’s logic.
 
Huh, I was kinda hoping to find some sort meaningful feedback to my post on page 2 by now.
 
j1akey said:
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Even if it were all true, we are just one little dot, not even a grain of sand on a beach in the vastness of the universe, so insignificant when compared to the scope and size of what we call reality, why would such an all powerful being even care about what happens on this planet or what anyone on it believes or doesn’t believe?
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Were also just a grain of sand before G-d:)

There is a saying.
Those who do not believe in G-d, are willing to believe in anything.
Evolution, Parallel Universes, etc…
They are willing to believe in ANYTHING that debunks the Pausibility of G-d.
Science itself Points to a creator.
Why do people of Science then deny their own profession?
 
Reuben_J said:
Because they are non-believers, do not believe in God and therefore do not fear God.

You can only hope to meet nice atheists who hopefully do not blaspheme so much to the extent that you just do not want to do anything with them again.

A believer is motivated by God; a non-believer is motivated by the enemy of God. Just be aware that you are not dealing with just anyone but the principality, the power of the world and the anti-God.
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There is a Verse in "Proverbs’ in the Bible taht says.

“The fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom”
Thats true, do Athiests want to Risk their immortal soul, in a high-stakes game of Poker?
G-d, knows all, see all, the Devil is a lying little weasel.
The Pot? Our Souls. It’s High Stakes.
 
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