Attention Protestants in favor of the Refomation!

[Contarini]

I would like Protestants to realize how much they need to rejoin with the Catholic Church and it is she that has the bible all interpreted well. For we know the Catholic Church is the only Church that interprets scripture the right way and know human being can attempt to do what she has done in 2,000 years. For people have been lead astray by the many doctrines that are Protestant. Although Protestants in good faith can be saved we there doctrines are quite not in the bible.

You don’t understand sola fide. It does not deny that true faith will produce works.

As for sola scriptura, of course it’s not in the Bible per se. What is in the Bible is the teaching that we should place the Word of God above human tradition. The Church has discerned certain books to be the written word of God–everything else has a more dubious status. Claims of “oral tradition” in the Catholic Church today are mostly about doctrinal development and have little to do with the few ritual practices which the early Church claimed had unwritten tradition as a basis (sign of the Cross, infant baptism, etc.). Given the highly nebulous nature of “tradition” as invoked by Catholics, Protestants have reasonable grounds for being skeptical of claims that the Word of God is found outside Scripture.

I myself don’t have a problem with accepting something like infant baptism as an apostolic tradition. But then I’m not a typical Protestant. And given the conflicting patristic evidence regarding infant baptism, I can’t blame my fellow Protestants for being more skeptical.

Edwin

 

[ferdie]

The original reformersof the 1500s believed in faith alone and scripture alone doctrines. Now that the Catholics is finally making other protestants understand that these doctrines are man made and not originally taught byt he Apostles, they are now making a spinoff that scipture has “enough” authority, and that the “original” protestants are the Apostles. What were the Apostles protesting? I may have missed reading that in early church history.
Knowing that protestants disagree on different doctrines, may I suggest that n-catholics tell their specific religion to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Thank you.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Being extremely happy in the company of others who believe the same way on some things means nothing especially if what you are taught there is falsehood and heresy and you are buying into it. Also the same if you think you can replace the Pope with yourself and accurately use your own human mind to interpret Scripture and all that is needed for salvation correctly yourself. If you teach one thing in Scripture yourself then lets find another Born Again believer like you who will teach otherwise - there are many and the Holy Spirit does not teach error.

When your head stops spinning please come home. We will pray for you.

Ken

Hi,
Are you extremely happy in the CC? Im sure you are. I could say the same thing of where you are. But if I am following the bible, I dont see how I could be being sucked into anything false. I understand we have different intrepretations, but the bottom line is that I believe in ALL Jesus did for me and that He loves me and sent the Holy Spirit to guide me and teach me. I follow the rules set forth in the Bible for me and you(well I try anyway ) I practice and practice and practice the fruit of the spirit in Galations. I am trying to do what God has commanded me to do. So, I feel that it does not matter which church building I walk into on sunday am, I am following God to the best of my ability. In my church, I am surrounded by true believers of Christ who are also walking with Christ and they are my brothers and sisters in Christ so why would I leave a group of people that I love and they love me as well. My church body has been an excellent source of spiritual guidance and has helped me grow over the last 3 years. Right now I am at total peace with where I am. I do not begrudge you that with the CC —so it would seem wrong for anyone to begrudge me or someone else who feels the same way as I do.
I do appreciate your prayers though.

Bless you

ALLFORHIM

P.S. As far as the Pope comment, I think someone else covered that point well.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

]“non-denom”? Is that short for non-committal?

Of course not!! The people in my church are very committed to Christ

So, everyone who believes in Jesus can believe anything they want and everyone goes to heaven?

Boy I sure hope not! We have to believe what the Bible tells us:thumbsup:

We just find a new church whenever the minister says something we don’t like?

Sadly, this does happen But of course this is not right.

Jesus said, “Do not be of one mind and one Faith. Don’t obey me, just write some book and follow what ever you want it to say. Rewrite my words when you don’t agree with them.”?

I suppose there are people out there who feel that way. Of course I am not one of them. I do obey God(daily struggle of course)I have not seen a Bible that was rewritten to suit anyones opinions. I have a catholic Bible and several protestant bibles and they are the same. I know (according to the CC)we have some books missing, but all else is the same.

God Peace and Bless you

P.S. I hope you are not as angry and sarcastic as your writing comes across. It is hard to tell over the internet.

 

[Syele]

"Image of God:

The PROBLEM I will state again, is that Jesus said he would be with the Church until the end of time.

I see no problem there. The Church is made up of the true followers of Christ. He hsan’t left them as far as I can tell.
Image of God:

Luther created a completely new church, teaching new doctrines. This is true.

My goal is not to follow Luther but to follow God. Luther was just a man. The Pope is also a man. Even so let’s look at the main points Luther had against the catholic Church:

(I attempted to quote the fuor main points of Luther from this site… but it won’t let me.)

You have first Justification by grace through faith which I already covered.
Second, he rejected the authority of the pope. He also said that if the Pope agreed with the Gospel he’d agree with the Pope. Sounds fair to me.
Third we have a comment that people can communicate directly with God. What have you to say to convince me I can’t?
Fourthly, he had a problem with holding mass in latin. I don’t even know of any parish in my area that still holds Mass in latin. I guess The Catholics decided he had a point between then and now.

The Pope has never replaced God. If you say this then you are saying that Peter replaced God.

  I'm not saying the pope replaces God, I'm saying I'm not convinced he has any infalliable componet. He is a Christian human being.  I see no Biblical evidence that any human on this earth has a set aside time when they get to be infalliable.

And this is the problem today. Each Protestant denomination can link itself someway or another to the Catholic Church(all of them!). There was only one Church. If you Believe the Holy Spirit does not teach error and you agree with the Reformation purposely, you are being contradictory. For the reason why the Reformation was started was because many people thought the Church was in error. My last doctrine that I put was directly quoted to Calvinists and it was a mistake. There has been a pope for almost 2,000 years and all of a sudden you do not need him anymore.

  The Church is not an orginazation a leadership hierarchy or a specific person. The Church is the entire body of believers-- Those who truly follow Jesus.The Holy Spirit has not left the Church and never will.

I am sorry if you are misunderstanding me, but there was only one Church with Peter as her physical leader established by Christ, not 60,000. Please forgive me for any mistake. But where is the rock Peter in your church?

  The rock is Jesus, not Peter. The foundation of the church was the words of Peter'sd confession, not his physical self. But who do you say Me to be?You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
  
  As for the 60,000 figure... just recently people were throwing around a 33,000 figure. Do you have a source or do you just like to use numbers with lots of zeros instead of saying the word alot? Another poster in this thread asserts that non-denominational is a denomination... if so then Your number has to shrink since most peole comming up with numbers that high are counting each individual non-denominational church as a denomination in itself.
  
  All that aside. Your argument that the Holy Spirit is aligned with a particular denomination (Catholic) and not others is not convincing me. The Holy Spirit teaches infalliably to whomever seeks Him. God is not limited by human organizations. All of the human organizations are falliable and make mistakes. Leaders of the Catholic church make mistakes same as all the others.It dosn't mean the Holy Spirit failed the church, it means the church (people) fail God.

 

[TimOliv]

ALLFORHIM…just an FYI, non denom is a denomination.

I call it Seinfeld Church, its a denomination about nothing

 

[jmcrae]

"The kingdom of God was taken from the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, which, according to you would be, essentially, Catholics;

Jesus founded the Catholic Church and established the Apostles as its first leaders. Neither He nor the Apostles ever separated from it.

… and the people that “the kingdom of God” was thereby given to, is the unbroken succession of Protestants that Catholics ignore.

Protestantism as we know it today didn’t begin until 1529.

The heretical Christian sects that existed during the time of the Apostles were not in any way endorsed by the Apostles (indeed, St. Paul warns his readers on many occasions about their false teachings, and tells them to stay away from them) and they died out very quickly - they have no successors living today.

The only church in existence today that can trace its origins back to Apostolic times is the Catholic Church. In addition, the Catholic Church traces its leadership succession name by name by name all the way back to St. Peter. From this, we know two things - that if there is any earthly Church organization that received the promise from Christ “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” then the Catholic Church is the only candidate, since it alone both existed at that time, and still exists now. (If Jesus was referring to an “invisible church,” then it doesn’t matter, and the Catholic Church is just as good as any other - there would be no merit in converting to something else, since all are the same, in that case) and that if there were lines of succession from the other Apostles, they have since been lost, but that of Peter (whom Jesus appointed as His vicar until He comes again in John 21:15-19 - and since Jesus knew that He was not returning during Peter’s lifetime, then He must have intended for Peter to have successors) remains until this very day - even though none of the nations or dynasties of that day exist anymore, and indeed the majority have been utterly forgotten - the Papacy, together with the Catholic Church has survived the rising and falling of so many different civilizations, even though we no longer have caesars, or pharoahs, or emperors.

Now, I have a question for you:

“…Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?..” Acts 19:2

I received the fullness of the Holy Ghost at the time of my Confirmation, when I received the anointing with oil together with the spiritual gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Right Judgement, Courage, Piety, and Awe of the Lord on April 14, 2001. I was also given a new name on that day, to signify that I had become a new person in Christ - they named me “Teresa” and that is why I am called “Judith Teresa.”

Of course I have also received Him at other times in my life, especially at my Baptism, and whenever I participate in the Sacraments of Penance and Holy Communion, whenever I pray, and whenever I participate in other religious exercises.

Thanks for asking!!

 

[Image_of_God]

My point was not that you misstated Calvinist doctrine, it was that you assumed that all protestants are Calvinist. I wouldn’t even agree that most protestants are calvinist. I am protestant and quite the opposite of a Calvinist. If your goal is to prove to me I am wrong you must first have a clue what it is that I’m wrong about. You began the thread by telling me the following things are wrong:
**“By Faith Alone”

** Protestantism dosn’t reject works… only the order in which they appear. Works are a natural byproduct and a verification of our faith. “Alone” doesn’t mean “You have faith and that’s it”. It means that I am not justified before God because I do good works. I’m simply not good enough. I am not perfect, I’m a sinner! I am justified by my faith not my works.

Tell me, How can a person live by faith in Jesus Christ and have no works? If I trully, deeply have faith in God and live accordingly would I not be doing what He asks?

I do not believe that faith without any works is even possible. Greater faith may result in more works, but if I have any faith at all some works will follow.

Sola Scriptura

Neither is the Trinity!!! There are a great many definitions of “Sola Scriptura” Which one(s) are you complaining about? I believe that the scriptures are not corrupt and are infalliable. Anyone who contradicts an incorrut and infalliable source has to be incorrect.

Once saved always saved
We are not being unsaved every time we sin and then saved again. However, it does not follow that it is therefore impossible to become unsaved when you were saved before. As a parent I do not kick my kid out of the house and disown her every time she disobeys. Does it follow, then, that she is allowed to do whatever she likes? NO. Everytime she disobeys she has to deal with consequenses. There could be a time when she might run away from home and refuse to ever speak to me again. She has free-will. In the same way, everytime I sin I have consequences to face God about. God deals with me on these issues so that I can grow closer to Him and become a better person. He does not abandon me and condemn me to hell for my mistakes because I am His child. This does not mean He will not discipline me! I have an option to run away from Him and totally reject Him because I have free will. Should I do that I will be given what I wanted… hell (An absence of God’s presence for eternity, I believe that would be much worse then a pit of fire).

continued…

I have reread my previous post and I have not once said that all Protestants are Calvinist. First you accuse me of using the term Protestant to general, now you accuse me of calling all Protestants Calvinist.

“I am justified by my faith not my works.” you say.
But James said, “a person is justified by works and not faith alone.” Your statement goes against the Bible.

The Trinity is in the Bible!!!
John 14,16
"And I(the Son) will ask (the Father) and he will give you another Advocate(the Spirit) to be always with you.

You can become unsaved!!!
Paul states we must remain in the kindness of God. You can put your soul in danger even if you were saved. I believe that being unsure of how your eternity will be causes for more faith than knowing it because of the uncertainty.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I see no problem there. The Church is made up of the true followers of Christ. He hsan’t left them as far as I can tell.

My goal is not to follow Luther but to follow God. Luther was just a man. The Pope is also a man. Even so let’s look at the main points Luther had against the catholic Church:

(I attempted to quote the fuor main points of Luther from this site… but it won’t let me.)

You have first Justification by grace through faith which I already covered.
Second, he rejected the authority of the pope. He also said that if the Pope agreed with the Gospel he’d agree with the Pope. Sounds fair to me.
Third we have a comment that people can communicate directly with God. What have you to say to convince me I can’t?
Fourthly, he had a problem with holding mass in latin. I don’t even know of any parish in my area that still holds Mass in latin. I guess The Catholics decided he had a point between then and now.

  I'm not saying the pope replaces God, I'm saying I'm not convinced he has any infalliable componet. He is a Christian human being.  I see no Biblical evidence that any human on this earth has a set aside time when they get to be infalliable.
  
  
  
  The Church is not an orginazation a leadership hierarchy or a specific person. The Church is the entire body of believers-- Those who truly follow Jesus.The Holy Spirit has not left the Church and never will.  
  
 
  
  The rock is Jesus, not Peter. The foundation of the church was the words of Peter'sd confession, not his physical self. But who do you say Me to be?You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
  
  As for the 60,000 figure... just recently people were throwing around a 33,000 figure. Do you have a source or do you just like to use numbers with lots of zeros instead of saying the word alot? Another poster in this thread asserts that non-denominational is a denomination... if so then Your number has to shrink since most peole comming up with numbers that high are counting each individual non-denominational church as a denomination in itself.
  
  All that aside. Your argument that the Holy Spirit is aligned with a particular denomination (Catholic) and not others is not convincing me. The Holy Spirit teaches infalliably to whomever seeks Him. God is not limited by human organizations. All of the human organizations are falliable and make mistakes. Leaders of the Catholic church make mistakes same as all the others.It dosn't mean the Holy Spirit failed the church, it means the church (people) fail God.

Hi,
I concur with you. You explain this so well as I cant(Writing is my weakness). I back you up 100% as usual. Hey two non-catholics that believe the same thing. What do ya know IT CAN HAPPEN :dancing:
ALLFORHIM

 

[Image_of_God]

Hi,
I concur with you. You explain this so well as I cant(Writing is my weakness). I back you up 100% as usual. Hey two non-catholics that believe the same thing. What do ya know IT CAN HAPPEN :dancing:
ALLFORHIM

I can’t…can’t believe it.

I have provided Scriptural evidence to show that what she said is completely unbiblical and then you concur with her because it sounds like what you believe? This is a shock and very sad. You would become unbiblical and do anything just to prove your faith.
Jesus has not failed to lead his people righteously, you should by a CCC.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I can’t…can’t believe it.

I have provided Scriptural evidence to show that what she said is completely unbiblical and then you concur with her because it sounds like what you believe? This is a shock and very sad. You would become unbiblical and do anything just to prove your faith.
Jesus has not failed to lead his people righteously, you should by a CCC.

Hi,
The Scripture you have provided IMHO does not prove that we are being unbiblical. You and I are intrepreting the verses differently. What Syele is saying doesnt sound like what I believe it is what I believe. We dont even know each other and we find out we believe the same. Dont get me wrong, I do respect the CC I just dont believe in all they teach. That may change someday, I dont know, but there are some things that I just cant reconcile. I have prayed about these issues and I have asked God to show me the truth and the Holy Spirit keeps leading me to what I already believe. What can I say, I am letting the Holy Spirit lead me not man. So far the Holy Spirit has lead me to an independent church.

I do have access to the CCC because my best friend is Catholic. I have read in the areas where I disagree and I have to say, I still cant reconcile. Im sorry I have shocked and saddened you. That only shows that you care about me a total stranger. Thank you for that.

Your right Jesus has not failed to lead His people------man has I also dont feel I have to prove my faith. God knows my heart and my motives. God proves His word without my help or any other human for that matter. Although sometimes I try to help Him(like He needs my help )

God Bless

 

[Syele]

I have reread my previous post and I have not once said that all Protestants are Calvinist. First you accuse me of using the term Protestant to general, now you accuse me of calling all Protestants Calvinist.

You are using explicitly calvinist doctrines and ascribing them to all protestants.

“I am justified by my faith not my works.” you say.
But James said, “a person is justified by works and not faith alone.” Your statement goes against the Bible.

My statement does not go against the Bible. The works are not for justification but for sanctification but they are still very important. If I come to believe James should be interpreted your way then he contradicts Paul. Was paul a liar when he said, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” (**Romans 3:28) or how about " **8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
James was talking about the works that a saved person performs as a result of the work God has already done in them and Paul is talking about the uselessness of works for becomming saved in the first place. Paul isn’t saying that a Christian is not supposed to do good works and James is not saying that works are needs for salvation. Our works prove our justification.

The Trinity is in the Bible!!!
John 14,16
"And I(the Son) will ask (the Father) and he will give you another Advocate(the Spirit) to be always with you.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that the Trinity is in the Bible but it never says the word “Trinity” I said that to show how your argument is not too well thought out. You have still failed to even define which version of sola scriptura you are saying is wrong. I gave you my definition… so I will assume we are talking about my definition of sola scriptura. Where is your proof that the Bible is corrupted or that is it falliable?

You can become unsaved!!!
Paul states we must remain in the kindness of God. You can put your soul in danger even if you were saved. I believe that being unsure of how your eternity will be causes for more faith than knowing it because of the uncertainty.

Why do you use so many !!!'s!?! I’m fairly certian… no, I’m positive that I said that you can become unsaved! OSAS is a Calvinist doctrine. Are you calling me a Calvinist or not?

 

[Syele]

Hi,
I concur with you. You explain this so well as I cant(Writing is my weakness). I back you up 100% as usual. Hey two non-catholics that believe the same thing. What do ya know IT CAN HAPPEN :dancing:
ALLFORHIM

I was a bit worried you and Lady_K2 weren’t here anymore. Have you seen her? Thanks for the compliment. I’m glad to see you are still here since the forums went down. :dancing:

 

[Image_of_God]

You are using explicitly calvinist doctrines and ascribing them to all protestants.

My statement does not go against the Bible. The works are not for justification but for sanctification but they are still very important. If I come to believe James should be interpreted your way then he contradicts Paul. Was paul a liar when he said, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” (**Romans 3:28) or how about " **8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
James was talking about the works that a saved person performs as a result of the work God has already done in them and Paul is talking about the uselessness of works for becomming saved in the first place. Paul isn’t saying that a Christian is not supposed to do good works and James is not saying that works are needs for salvation. Our works prove our justification.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that the Trinity is in the Bible but it never says the word “Trinity” I said that to show how your argument is not too well thought out. You have still failed to even define which version of sola scriptura you are saying is wrong. I gave you my definition… so I will assume we are talking about my definition of sola scriptura. Where is your proof that the Bible is corrupted or that is it falliable?

Why do you use so many !!!'s!?! I’m fairly certian… no, I’m positive that I said that you can become unsaved! OSAS is a Calvinist doctrine. Are you calling me a Calvinist or not?

Does it need to say the word in the Bible?
When did I say the Bible was fallible?
All I said was that it says the word justify meaning it is part of justification. What Paul is arguing against was the uselessness of works for causing them to have been saved. We are Justified by Faith and Works from grace.
I have never said that someone is justified from works of the law, but works from grace. We are still required to follow the law though.

And also Calvinists are not the only ones who believe in OSAS. If you accuse me of being general, then you should acknowledge that it does not apply to every Protestant group. Justification is not a one time thing! If justification is through faith, then wouldn’t it stop when someone went into despair? Both faith and works are gifts, so they are equivalent. So in the same sense justification and sanctification are two sides of the same coin. Paul was NOT a liar. It is true we are not saved by works, but we are justified by them. If this is true they must have some merit.

There are three tense in which the Bible states
We are saved
We are being saved
We(hope we) will be saved

I think we are simply comming to misunderstanding.

 

[Syele]

Does it need to say the word in the Bible?
When did I say the Bible was fallible?

You didn’t, In fact I did ask you what you think sola scriptura ment and you didn’t answer. If you don’t answer I have to simply guess. If you want to discuss Sola Scriptura you are goning to have to define what you think it is or at least don’t complain if I guess wrong. I DID ask you before guessing.

All I said was that it says the word justify meaning it is part of justification. What Paul is arguing against was the uselessness of works for causing them to have been saved. We are Justified by Faith and Works from grace.
I have never said that someone is justified from works of the law, but works from grace. We are still required to follow the law though.

And I still disagree with you.

And also Calvinists are not the only ones who believe in OSAS. If you accuse me of being general, then you should acknowledge that it does not apply to every Protestant group.

Well I clearly told you I don’t believe in OSAS. I also to you I’m not Calvinist. Why do I bother talking to you if you aren’t going to read it? Why don’t you answer my questions?

Justification is not a one time thing! If justification is through faith, then wouldn’t it stop when someone went into despair? Both faith and works are gifts, so they are equivalent. So in the same sense justification and sanctification are two sides of the same coin. Paul was NOT a liar. It is true we are not saved by works, but we are justified by them. If this is true they must have some merit.

There are three tense in which the Bible states
We are saved
We are being saved
We(hope we) will be saved

I think we are simply comming to misunderstanding.

I’m quite familiar with the Catholic position and I disagree.
We people are saved.
We are being perfected in Christ.
We hope we will perservere until heaven.

 

[Image_of_God]

Image of God;1481883:

Does it need to say the word in the Bible?
When did I say the Bible was fallible?

Again I tell you, I DID NOT say every Protestant denomination believed in OSAS. Does not Jesus say “persevere until the end and you will be saved?” Sola Scriptura can mean so many things and I was going for a more general aproach not a specific one. Sola Scriptura means several different things to different Protestants, but a more general approach is…

The Bible is the only infallible source of information. First you accuse me of sayinv the Bible is infallible.
Just look at your prior posts. You keep stuffing words into my mouth so how can I speak?

 

[Syele]

Syele;1481914:

Again I tell you, I DID NOT say every Protestant denomination believed in OSAS. Does not Jesus say “persevere until the end and you will be saved?” Sola Scriptura can mean so many things and I was going for a more general aproach not a specific one. Sola Scriptura means several different things to different Protestants, but a more general approach is…

The Bible is the only infallible source of information. First you accuse me of sayinv the Bible is infallible.
Just look at your prior posts. You keep stuffing words into my mouth so how can I speak?

Tell you what, I won’t “Stuff any more words” in your mouth and I’ll just sit here and wait for you to answer my questions.

 

[Image_of_God]

Syele;1481914:

Again I tell you, I DID NOT say every Protestant denomination believed in OSAS. Does not Jesus say “persevere until the end and you will be saved?” Sola Scriptura can mean so many things and I was going for a more general aproach not a specific one. Sola Scriptura means several different things to different Protestants, but a more general approach is…

The Bible is the only infallible source of information. First you accuse me of sayinv the Bible is infallible.
Just look at your prior posts. You keep stuffing words into my mouth so how can I speak?

Make a list of all your questions and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

 

[Image_of_God]

Image of God;1481934:

Tell you what, I won’t “Stuff any more words” in your mouth and I’ll just sit here and wait for you to answer my questions.

I’ll have to talk to you tommorrow, it’s late in eastern time. If you correctly state your questions, instead of attacking me with accusations then I or someone else will answer them.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

It’s not like they’ve never thought of that before. Protestants today aren’t like “Really, you mean the Bible says ‘not by faith alone’!”

No, they are quiet aware. Just like we are quiet aware that the book of Hebrews states that we have been sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (10:10).

And etc.

We understand things our way, and they understand things their way, and we disagree. We can explain Christ’s “once for all” sacrifice AND the Sacrificice of Mass, and they can explain justification by faith alone alongside of James 2.

I just thoght I’d throw that out, I’m feeling ecumenical today!