Attitude to Tridentine Mass in post-VII era

[mitch2007]

I have often wondered: what attitude did “conservative” Cardinals, especially Giuseppe Cardinal Siri of Genoa, adopt to the Tridentine Mass in the 1970’s and 1980’s? Also to Archbishop Lefebvre?

And what about Cardinal Ottaviani? One thinks of the Ottaviani Intervention, but he lived to 1979 - 10 years of the Novus Ordo, and 15 since the changes began. Did he ever come out in support of the Archbishop’s resistance, or did he come to accept the Novus Ordo?

Mitch

 

[bpbasilphx]

Did he ever come out in support of the Archbishop’s resistance, or did he come to accept the Novus Ordo?

**He accepted the Novus Ordo as it was actually promulgated.

His famous INTERVENTION was based on an early draft. He withdrew his criticisms when the official edition was released.

For more information, go to this site:

matt1618.freeyellow.com/novusordo.html**

<<Pope Paul VI gave two general audiences in regards to the Pauline Rite Mass. Cardinal Ottaviani responded to this by writing:

“I have REJOICED PROFOUNDLY to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and ESPECIALLY THE DOCTRINAL PRECISIONS CONTAINED IN HIS DISCOURSES at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26, after which I believe, NO ONE CAN ANY LONGER BE GENUINELY SCANDALIZED. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your ‘Doctrinal Note’ [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae WIDE DIFFUSION AND SUCCESS.” (Whitehead, 129, Letter from his eminence Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani to Dom Gerard Lafond, O.S.B., in Documentation Catholique, #67, 1970, pages 215-216 and 343)

Cardinal Ottaviani published later yet another very relevant public statement in which he said: “The Beauty of the Church is equally resplendent in the variety of the liturgical rites which enrich her divine cult-when they are legitimate and conform to the faith. Precisely the LEGITIMACY OF THEIR ORIGIN PROTECTS AND GUARDS THEM AGAINST INFILTRATION OF ERRORS. . . .The PURITY AND UNITY OF THE FAITH is in this manner also UPHELD BY THE SUPREME MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE THROUGH THE LITURGICAL LAWS.”(In Cruzado Espanol, May 25, 1970)>>

Many traditionalist frequently refer to the Intervention, but they never attend to what he said later.

 

[saint_rafael]

Most of the orthodox conservative Cardinals quietly suffered under the conciliar Church. Like all clergyman during this time of apostasy, upheaval, and revolution, they submitted and compromised.

It was a sad thing for many of these man to see because it was under Pope Paul VI that the Church was utterly destroyed between 1965 and 1978. Pope John Paul II inherited a Church in ruins and did not try to undue Paul VI’s damage.

Archbishop Lefebvre had the supernatural courage to stand up for the truth knowing that he would be betrayed by the Church. It is his courage the will make him a future saint and possible Doctor of the Church.

 

[I_Believe]

Most of the orthodox conservative Cardinals quietly suffered under the conciliar Church. Like all clergyman during this time of apostasy, upheaval, and revolution, they submitted and compromised.

It was a sad thing for many of these man to see because it was under Pope Paul VI that the Church was utterly destroyed between 1965 and 1978. Pope John Paul II inherited a Church in ruins and did not try to undue Paul VI’s damage.

Archbishop Lefebvre had the supernatural courage to stand up for the truth knowing that he would be betrayed by the Church. It is his courage the will make him a future saint and possible Doctor of the Church.

I know you answered with passion here, but you may want to take a look at the bolded sentence.

I don’t think the Church Herself betrayed anyone, nor would I deem the good bishop to possess supernatural qualities. Strong Faith, yes.

 

[bpbasilphx]

It was a sad thing for many of these man to see because it was under Pope Paul VI that the Church was utterly destroyed between 1965 and 1978.

**Not that I noticed.

Nor the people at the parish I attend.**

 

[saint_rafael]

It was a sad thing for many of these man to see because it was under Pope Paul VI that the Church was utterly destroyed between 1965 and 1978.

**Not that I noticed.

Nor the people at the parish I attend.**

I am suprised that Catholics did not notice we went from 75% Mass attendance with men and their families at the TLM dressed formally with many young vibrant priests, to in a couple of years,

a New Mass with 70’s folk music, irreverence, casul dress, confused Modernist priests, Communion in the hand, the busy body Laity invading the sanctuary of the sacraficing high priest to the point that there are now more lay ministers than actual priests, and the turning of Catholic Churches into ugly empty looking Protestant lecture halls.

 

[saint_rafael]

I don’t think the Church Herself betrayed anyone, nor would I deem the good bishop to possess supernatural qualities. Strong Faith, yes.

Archbishop Lefebvre was right about the TLM. He said that it was never abrogated and any priest could say it. By a miracle from heaven, Pope Benedict had to acknowledge this truth. Lefebvre was warning the Church about how bad the new Mass was and that it was hurting the Church.

He spoke the truth about the apostasy and the state of emergency in the Church. He tied to help the Church keep the faith and for this they excommunicated him, betrayed him, and told him to shut up.
The heretics continued their terror and the heirarchy closed their eyes to the situation around them. The Church was in meltdown.

How long are they going to wait? They might not wake up until there is only the Pope left with a handful of bishops, cardinals, and lay men.

 

[rwoehmke]

The vernacular Mass aside, it wasn’t Vatican II or the Mass of Paul VI that led to casual attire at Mass. Casual attire spread across the whole of society including business, entertainment, and almost the whole scene. The semi-formal dinner parties between working colleagues are gone, having the boss home to dinner is gone, fine table setting including crystal, real silver ware, and fine china have become a thing of the past. Sunday casual dress has little to do with disrespect of the Eucharist. It has all to do with what most of us have become; casual to a fault.

Many middle class fathers and mothers dressed for family dinners in the forties. When was the last time the majority ever did this in our homes on a daily basis? Move on folks. Life as we knew it has changed. It is kind of sad. I now own only one suit and haven’t worn it in years to any event. Maybe they will bury me in it, but probably not. “It just doesn’t look like Dad.”

 

[saint_rafael]

The vernacular Mass aside, it wasn’t Vatican II or the Mass of Paul VI that led to casual attire at Mass. Casual attire spread across the whole of society including business, entertainment, and almost the whole scene. The semi-formal dinner parties between working colleagues are gone, having the boss home to dinner is gone, fine table setting including crystal, real silver ware, and fine china have become a thing of the past. Sunday casual dress has little to do with disrespect of the Eucharist. It has all to do with what most of us have become; casual to a fault.

Many middle class fathers and mothers dressed for family dinners in the forties. When was the last time the majority ever did this in our homes on a daily basis? Move on folks. Life as we knew it has changed. It is kind of sad. I now own only one suit and haven’t worn it in years to any event. Maybe they will bury me in it, but probably not. “It just doesn’t look like Dad.”

I wear a suit and tie to every a Sunday to Mass and a blazer for casual wear.
We are not supposed to move on. We are supposed to fight the culture. Catholics need to be leading the revolution for modesty, traditionalism, and and dignity in dress.

Catholicism is supposed to be the leaven for society. We are never supposed to go with the times or any other fads. Eternal truths of Catholicism should always be exhibited. We are supposed to be separate from the secularists and worldlings of society. Society used to recognize Catholics by sight.

 

[Frosty]

.

Catholicism is supposed to be the leaven for society. We are never supposed to go with the times or any other fads. Eternal truths of Catholicism should always be exhibited. We are supposed to be separate from the secularists and worldlings of society. Society used to recognize Catholics by sight.

I don’t follow what you are saying here. If I was to take you literally, then what are we all doing on this forum using a computer? The Internet is certainly a “sign of the times”, is it not?
Just how did the rest of society recognize Catholics by sight?

 

[saint_rafael]

I don’t follow what you are saying here. If I was to take you literally, then what are we all doing on this forum using a computer? The Internet is certainly a “sign of the times”, is it not?
Just how did the rest of society recognize Catholics by sight?

I was not talking about technology, even though not all of it is that great.

I am talking about the realm of customs, morals, and our attitudes. Society recognized that Catholics had what was called Christian joy. Catholics walked around with a certain sense of piety, reverence, decorum, and disposition.

 

[I_Believe]

Archbishop Lefebvre was right about the TLM. He said that it was never abrogated and any priest could say it. By a miracle from heaven, Pope Benedict had to acknowledge this truth. Lefebvre was warning the Church about how bad the new Mass was and that it was hurting the Church.

He spoke the truth about the apostasy and the state of emergency in the Church. He tied to help the Church keep the faith and for this they excommunicated him, betrayed him, and told him to shut up.
The heretics continued their terror and the heirarchy closed their eyes to the situation around them. The Church was in meltdown.

How long are they going to wait? They might not wake up until there is only the Pope left with a handful of bishops, cardinals, and lay men.

Fair enough, but the Tradition of the Church Herself, the Church of Jesus Christ, as an institution, was betrayed by certain churchmen in the Hierarchy.

We, you and I, just define the Church differently.

It’s all on the table. The crisis can’t be denied any longer. Those set in their ways will fight reversal of what they see as positive. For example, those who think nothing but good has come of interfaith worship. It’s not catholic. Both you and I would agree it’s not, but our stance on this is contrary to the stance of the Holy See right now.

I consider myself as a traditionalist, but I can’t see any other choice but to accept things are how they are for now, and trust in BXVI to lead the Hierarchy. I can only pray that error will be acknowledged and corrected.

Looking at the Church’s current teachings and embracing certain ones and wholly rejecting others is cafeteria catholicism. IMO, that is something, traditionally, catholics just don’t do.

With the crisis being as bad as it is, and with all the division VII’s mis-implimentation has enabled, I’d say the Church is far from being torn apart. And it’s far from crumbling.

The challenge is making ourselves worthy of the Promises of Christ. The layman all the way up to the Pope himself.

IMO, with the writing on the wall being read by all, it’s now up to our young priests. From them, will come the future bishops. If they see the need to protect Tradition, and I pray they do, and feel they will, then the Hierarchy will be back in the business of saving souls. If current trends continue, then those who truly have the Faith will have to continue searching for Holy priests. And that search will be an enormous task as time goes on.

 

[eelpis]

I wear a suit and tie to every a Sunday to Mass and a blazer for casual wear.
We are not supposed to move on. We are supposed to fight the culture. Catholics need to be leading the revolution for modesty, traditionalism, and and dignity in dress.

Catholicism is supposed to be the leaven for society. We are never supposed to go with the times or any other fads. Eternal truths of Catholicism should always be exhibited. We are supposed to be separate from the secularists and worldlings of society. Society used to recognize Catholics by sight.

I prefer the EF but I cannot see anything wrong in casual dress. As long as it’s clean, whole and modest.
Hearing Mass is not a showing off contest. Splendour is for the glory of God and not for man’s selfglorification.