ATTN: I will revert to Protestantism if Protestants can....

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dennisknapp

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Greetings,

This is a call to all Protestants out there.

If you can show me sola scriptura (bible alone), sola fide (faith alone), purely symbolic baptism and communion in the early Church, I will revert back to Protestantism.

For the sake of time let’s make the period between 100 and 300 AD. This is just after the Apostles (John died in 100) and before Constantine and the Edict of Milan.

This is no joke. If I am shown that the early Church actually believed these things and it was the Catholic Church which erred, I will change.

I became a Catholic because I could not find these beliefs, but I could have missed something.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
Greetings,

This is a call to all Protestants out there.

If you can show me sola scriptura (bible alone), sola fide (faith alone), purely symbolic baptism and communion in the early Church, I will revert back to Protestantism.

For the sake of time let’s make the period between 100 and 300 AD. This is just after the Apostles (John died in 100) and before Constantine and the Edict of Milan.

This is no joke. If I am shown that the early Church actually believed these things and it was the Catholic Church which erred, I will change.

I became a Catholic because I could not find these beliefs, but I could have missed something.

Peace
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I was a Protestant like you were and I heard all the Protestant allegations that the original pure Biblical faith was corrupted by the Catholic Church.

And then I started reading what the very first Christians, following the Apostles, said and believed.
I was “blown away” to find they believed in the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, the regenerative power of Baptism, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, prayers to the Saints, prayers for the dead, a threefold ministry of Bishops, Priests and Deacons and the necessity of the authority of the Church through its Councils and Magesterium to interpret Scripture and the faith for us.
One thing I simply failed to find in ANY of the writings of these first Christians were any identifiably Protestant doctrines such as sola scriptura or sola fidei.
 
Hey Dennis!
I’ll be watching this thread too and join you in this challenge. I have really looked…and I sure as vitam aeternam can’t find any of that either. I’ve talked to some folks who alleged stuff, but it all was nothing more than empty allegations without a shred of historical proof.

:tiphat: Now step right up folks, don’t be shy. Bet your soul on the truth that ya know.!!! Hurry Hurry Hurry!
(All in my best carnival barker’s voice)
 
Tertullian, treatise on BAPTISM 18,4 (c. AD 200-206)

"**According to circumstance and disposition and even age of the individual person, it may be better to delay Baptism; and especially so in the case of little children. ** Why, indeed, is it necessary – if it be not a case of necessity – that the sponsors to be thrust into danger, when they themselves may fail to fulfill their promises by reason of death, or when they may be disappointed by the growth of an evil disposition? Indeed the Lord says, ‘Do not forbid them to come to me’ [Matt 19:14; Luke 18:16].

“Let them come, then, while they grow up, while they learn, while they are taught to whom to come; let them become Christians when they will have been able to know Christ! Why does the innocent age hasten to the remission of sins? …For no less cause should the unmarried also be deferred, in whom there is an aptness to temptation – in virgins on account of their ripeness as also in the widowed on account of their freedom – until they are married or are better strengthened for continence. Anyone who understands the seriousness of Baptism will fear its reception more than its deferral. Sound faith is secure of its salvation!”
 
That’s it? Shlemele…many people actually tried to wait and be baptised on their deathbeds because they hadn’t got a grip on auricular confession as we do today. Case in point- Constantine himself, because as you can see the early church was afraid they’d “fail in their promises” and go to hell for the sins after baptism. Catholicism is the only answer to that problem that is both Biblical in John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. and historically accurate.

Keep tryin’ though…

BTW that does not at all prove a symbolic baptism…
Pax tecum,
 
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Shlemele:
Tertullian, treatise on BAPTISM 18,4 (c. AD 200-206)

"**According to circumstance and disposition and even age of the individual person, it may be better to delay Baptism; and especially so in the case of little children. **Why, indeed, is it necessary – if it be not a case of necessity – that the sponsors to be thrust into danger, when they themselves may fail to fulfill their promises by reason of death, or when they may be disappointed by the growth of an evil disposition? Indeed the Lord says, ‘Do not forbid them to come to me’ [Matt 19:14; Luke 18:16].

“Let them come, then, while they grow up, while they learn, while they are taught to whom to come; let them become Christians when they will have been able to know Christ! Why does the innocent age hasten to the remission of sins? …For no less cause should the unmarried also be deferred, in whom there is an aptness to temptation – in virgins on account of their ripeness as also in the widowed on account of their freedom – until they are married or are better strengthened for continence. Anyone who understands the seriousness of Baptism will fear its reception more than its deferral. Sound faith is secure of its salvation!”
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Tertullian also said this:

"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (*Baptism *1 [A.D. 203]).

…

"Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins" (ibid., 7:2).

I do admit that there were those against infant baptism, like Tertullian, but they were not in the majority.

The greater point is what Tertullian thought of baptism, not when it should be administered.

What of sola fidei and sola scriptura? Those are the biggies by far. If you can find those the rest fall into place.

Peace
 
For the record what do you mean by symbolic baptism? I’m Anababtist so my definition might be different from Protestant. I think the quote does lend credence to the fact that even in 200 AD there was no concensus on the matter.
 
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Shlemele:
For the record what do you mean by symbolic baptism? I’m Anababtist so my definition might be different from Protestant. I think the quote does lend credence to the fact that even in 200 AD there was no concensus on the matter.
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Do you believe baptism washes away original sin? This is what the early Church believed regardless of the age of the person recieving the sacrement.

Peace
 
Here is sola scriptura (one is past your required dates though)

-Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than
from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”
  • Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
    The Stromata, 7:16
    “But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”
    -Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395)
    “On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327
 
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UBERROGO:
Here is sola scriptura (one is past your required dates though)

-Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than
from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”
  • Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
    The Stromata, 7:16
    “But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”
    -Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395)
    “On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327
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Where do these quotes say that Scripture is the **only **authority in the believer’s life?

What about when these same people say,

“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For**, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same”** (Irenaeus: *Against Heresies *1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition" (Clement of Alexandria: *Miscellanies *1:1 [A.D. 208]).

Peace

Quotes taken from catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp
 
Clement of Rome (AD 96)

And we, therefore…are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning (ch. 32:4).

Here is another one for Sola Fidei.

Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35-107)

Let your baptism be ever your shield, your faith a helmet, your charity a spear, your patience a panoply. Let your works be deposits, so that you may receive the sum that is due you" (Letter to St. Polycarp, 6).
 
Irenaeus (AD 130-200)

No one, indeed while placed out of reach of our Lord’s benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation. So the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him (Against Heresies, Bk. IV, ch. XIII).

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215)

We have discovered faith to be the first movement towards salvation. After faith, fear, hope, and repentance (accompanied by temperance and patience) lead us to love and knowledge (The Stromata, Bk. II, ch. VI).
 
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Shlemele:
Clement of Rome (AD 96)

And we, therefore…are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning (ch. 32:4).

Here is another one for Sola Fidei.

Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35-107)

Let your baptism be ever your shield, your faith a helmet, your charity a spear, your patience a panoply. Let your works be deposits, so that you may receive the sum that is due you" (Letter to St. Polycarp, 6).
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Clements words are not against Catholic belief when in context. For he goes on later to say,

"How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence,(10) faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! And all these fall under the cognizance of our understandings [now]; what then shall those things be which are prepared for such as wait for Him? The Creator and Father of all worlds,(11) the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty. Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith rewards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition.(12) For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those that take pleasure in them that do them.(13) For the Scripture saith, “But to the sinner God said, Wherefore dost thou declare my statutes, and take my covenant into thy mouth, seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee? When thou sawest a thief, thou consentedst with(14) him, and didst make thy portion with adulterers. Thy mouth has abounded with wickedness, and thy tongue contrived(15) deceit. Thou sittest, and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest(16) thine own mother’s son. These things thou hast done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest, wicked one, that I should be like to thyself. But I will reprove thee, and set thyself before thee. Consider now these things, ye that forget God, lest He tear you in pieces, like a lion, and there be none to deliver. The sacrifice of praise will glorify Me, and a way is there by which I will show him the salvation of God.”(17) (ch. 35).

The whole letter is availible at monachos.net/patristics/1clement.shtml

Peace
 
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Shlemele:
Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35-107)

Let your baptism be ever your shield, your faith a helmet, your charity a spear, your patience a panoply. Let your works be deposits, so that you may receive the sum that is due you" (Letter to St. Polycarp, 6).
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Sola fidei teaches that we are justified by faith alone, not works. This quote cannot be used in its defense. With faith alone there is no receiving anything that is due.

Peace
 
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Shlemele:
Irenaeus (AD 130-200)

No one, indeed while placed out of reach of our Lord’s benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation. So the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him (Against Heresies, Bk. IV, ch. XIII).
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“[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care” (Irenaeus: Against Heresies 4:37:7 [A.D. 189]).
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Shlemele:
Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215)

We have discovered faith to be the first movement towards salvation. After faith, fear, hope, and repentance (accompanied by temperance and patience) lead us to love and knowledge (The Stromata, Bk. II, ch. VI).
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The Catholic Church agrees that faith is the first movement towards salvation. This is totally in line with Rome’s teaching.

Peace
 
what do you mean by purely symbolic baptism, i never heard thatone before, please explain.

So far we have sola fidea and sola scriptura… only two more to go until you recant your cathlic faith!
 
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dennisknapp:
Greetings,

This is a call to all Protestants out there.

If you can show me sola scriptura (bible alone), sola fide (faith alone), purely symbolic baptism and communion in the early Church, I will revert back to Protestantism.

For the sake of time let’s make the period between 100 and 300 AD. This is just after the Apostles (John died in 100) and before Constantine and the Edict of Milan.

This is no joke. If I am shown that the early Church actually believed these things and it was the Catholic Church which erred, I will change.

I became a Catholic because I could not find these beliefs, but I could have missed something.

Peace
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Dennis… you are hereby crowned the King of Strawman and Bait-and-Switch.

Are all of your “Attention Protestant” posts really charitable, or just an effort to break down the Body of Christ?

O+
 
O.S. Luke:
Dennis… you are hereby crowned the King of Strawman and Bait-and-Switch.
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Talk about charitable…:rolleyes:
Are all of your “Attention Protestant” posts really charitable, or just an effort to break down the Body of Christ?

O+
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I find dennis’ posts very charitable. He offers protestants visiting the board an opportunity to evangelize. Protestants know this doesn’t always come easy. And I do not think dennis is making anyone post on this thread, but I could be wrong…

I saw nothing uncharitable about this post, requesting proof that protestantism is THE way to go. If he can refute the points given, that just makes him prepared in the debate- not uncharitable.
 
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