Attn: Mormons

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dafalax

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How do you know if the Mormon leader is in apostasy? My understanding (which may be flawed) is that current revelations can contradict past revelations, so you just have to take it on faith that the current prophet is on the up and up. However, if each prophet is protected somehow from teaching error, why couldn’t Jesus Christ Himself keep the first Church from allegedly apostasizing? I mean, Joseph Smith’s church is nearly 200 years old whereas Jesus couldn’t make it past 100? Please enlighten me.
 
dafalax said:
How do you know if the Mormon leader is in apostasy? My understanding (which may be flawed) is that current revelations can contradict past revelations, so you just have to take it on faith that the current prophet is on the up and up. However, if each prophet is protected somehow from teaching error, why couldn’t Jesus Christ Himself keep the first Church from allegedly apostasizing? I mean, Joseph Smith’s church is nearly 200 years old whereas Jesus couldn’t make it past 100? Please enlighten me.
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I think that we (Mormons) take the integrity of our Prophet (currently Thomas S. Monson) on faith in the same way that the Catholics take the integrity of the current Pope on faith. Each prophet and each pope is still human and subject to human frailties - there is NOBODY immune to that.

Annie
 
Annie_B said:
I think that we (Mormons) take the integrity of our Prophet (currently Thomas S. Monson) on faith in the same way that the Catholics take the integrity of the current Pope on faith. Each prophet and each pope is still human and subject to human frailties - there is NOBODY immune to that.

Annie
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Of course the Holy Father does not claim to be a prophet with divine revelations. Of which, must be free of err.😉

The office of the papacy cannot institute an infallible doctrine that contradicts Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition or the Mesetarium.
 
here is the difference though, the Pope can’t CHANGE doctrine nor can he create NEW doctrine. he can only clarify existing doctrine. It would be obvious if a pope went doctrinally rogue.

LDS prophets can (and have) completely change doctrine, scriptures or whatever else with pretty much no checks or balances. so how do you know TM is actually still speaking for the Lord when addresses your church?
 
Annie_B said:
I think that we (Mormons) take the integrity of our Prophet (currently Thomas S. Monson) on faith in the same way that the Catholics take the integrity of the current Pope on faith. Each prophet and each pope is still human and subject to human frailties - there is NOBODY immune to that.

Annie
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Our Pope does not get divine revelations ongoing. Anything he teaches or a council teaches, must be a clarification of existing doctrines and dogmas, not a contradition thereof.
The history of the LDS church is fraught with contradictions (polygamy necessary for celestial heaven, polygamy not required for celestial heaven). How do you know that a contradiction isn’t an apostasy? Catholics are not allowed to have contradictions, so we see the Holy Spirit working in our Church when we can look back through the ages and see consistency in teachings. How do you know God is with your prophet? If there was some magic way for a prophet to not teach apostasy, why was Jesus unable to get that going with His initial effort?
 
I hope someone does address this. It does seem to be a paradox.
I’d be interested to know the answer.
 
The whole mormonism is one big apostasy. They not only reject the leadership of Peter, they also deny the divinity of Jesus. There is absolutely no reason to believe in Joseph Smith’s “revelation”, he wasn’t a trustworthy person at all. He was a freemason… Some people were leaving the Church, others were joinin it, that’s how it was and that’s how it will always be. God gave us freedom, so if Smith wanted to preach his ideas, he could. Many heresies still exist and our task is to pray for conversion of those who believe in them and to preach the truth.
 
Either the LDS church is in total apostasy or the Catholic Church is. There’s not much room for any middle ground. Why do you think they rail against Catholics so much? Unfortunately for them, we have every shred of historical, scriptural, traditional, cultural, social, and archeological evidence behind us. Any attempts their “prophets” and elders have made to discredit the Catholic Church have amounted to nothing more than lame propaganda with more holes in it than a Wiffle ball.
 
Why was this question even asked in the first place if all the Catholics were going to do was point out the failings of the LDS Church and prophet? It seems that people who ask questions about Mormons on CA are really just looking for an opportunity to “point out the errors” of the LDS church. It seems as if questions are asked with the answer already in the mind of the OP:( Just another opportunity to try and bring down the LDS Church? It will not work:D

Annie
 
Annie_B said:
Why was this question even asked in the first place if all the Catholics were going to do was point out the failings of the LDS Church and prophet? It seems that people who ask questions about Mormons on CA are really just looking for an opportunity to “point out the errors” of the LDS church. It seems as if questions are asked with the answer already in the mind of the OP:( Just another opportunity to try and bring down the LDS Church? It will not work:D

Annie
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It’s funny for me to see a bunch of people indulging in heads of pins arguments. There’s no evidence for either the Pope or the LDS Prophet actually getting any divine guidance or revelation.

They’re just two fellas who have the (unenviable) task of running multi-billion dollar corporations. Of course they’re both going to get stressed out, make mistakes, put their feet in their mouths, change doctrine (Vatican II, anyone?) to suit the needs of the time and otherwise do what any fairly competent CEO is going to do in similar circumstances.

The current LDS prophet was a big fan of Communist East Germany, and made a close ally of a cruel dictator named Erich Hoenecker, who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. The current Pope was a big fan of Naziism and a former Hitler Youth leader. Obviously they both lacked any claim of divine inspiration in the past (LOL!).

It’s always easier to simply quit thinking critically and let someone else tell you what to do. If you people really believe in God (Catholic or Mormon) I think it’s an insult to your creator(s?) to do this. Try thinking for yourselves, and allowing for the fact that your leaders might make an occasional gaffe. This means you’ll have to take a bit of responsibility for your own actions, but it’ll also free you up to have a more authentic spiritual experience.
 
I’d like to so some evidence that that causes you to believe that B16 was a “big fan” of nazism. I also think you exaggerate the relationship between Thomas Monson and hoenecher.

Why do you think vatican 2 changed doctrine? I believe it only changed practices and quite frankly not that much. if you stick to the actual documented pronouncements of the council then I believe you will see a restoration of various PRACTICES from the pre-lateran church. I really don’t see how the language used, position of the celebrant, permanent diaconate, RCIA/C and authorized involvement of the laity in some ministries represents change in doctrine. even the abuses attributed to the “spirit of V2” do not in my opinion represent changes in doctrine.
 
Why was this question even asked in the first place if all the Catholics were going to do was point out the failings of the LDS Church and prophet?
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I think the question is valid, but have failed to see a single Mormon give a straight-forward answer. How could a Mormon president (prophet) contridict previous Mormon presidents and not be charged with apostacy? It really does appear that the LDS have two sets of standards - one for themselves (exceedingly lax) and one for all others.
 
LaMar said:
It’s funny for me to see a bunch of people indulging in heads of pins arguments. There’s no evidence for either the Pope or the LDS Prophet actually getting any divine guidance or revelation.

They’re just two fellas who have the (unenviable) task of running multi-billion dollar corporations. Of course they’re both going to get stressed out, make mistakes, put their feet in their mouths, change doctrine (Vatican II, anyone?) to suit the needs of the time and otherwise do what any fairly competent CEO is going to do in similar circumstances.

The current LDS prophet was a big fan of Communist East Germany, and made a close ally of a cruel dictator named Erich Hoenecker, who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. The current Pope was a big fan of Naziism and a former Hitler Youth leader. Obviously they both lacked any claim of divine inspiration in the past (LOL!).

It’s always easier to simply quit thinking critically and let someone else tell you what to do. If you people really believe in God (Catholic or Mormon) I think it’s an insult to your creator(s?) to do this. Try thinking for yourselves, and allowing for the fact that your leaders might make an occasional gaffe. This means you’ll have to take a bit of responsibility for your own actions, but it’ll also free you up to have a more authentic spiritual experience.
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Vatican II did not change any doctrine or dogma. Changing the liturgy from Latin to vernacular had to do with discipline (yes, another D), same as unmarried priests. This is a digression of the original question. “Oh yeah? Well you guys do the same thing” is not an answer.
I would ask if you are not going to answer the original question that you not post.
AnnieB, who pointed out the failings of your prophet? We have had popes who had out of wedlock children. It doesn’t matter as long as they don’t try to change the catechism to say that fornication is acceptable. Their TEACHING is guided by the Holy Spirit, not every aspect of their personal life. The question was, if your teaching changes, how do you know it’s not apostasy? It is a valid question. What protects your prophet from teaching error?
 
LaMar said:
The current Pope was a big fan of Naziism and a former Hitler Youth leader.
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Look, I appreciate your cynical wit and your strong anti-religious opinions, but you are flat-out wrong about this one. The current Pope came from a family which was strongly critical of Naziism. His father was forced to move around to avoid them, and the young Joseph Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth in name only. He was on the rolls because ALL German youth were required to be. He never attended a single meeting. He was drafted late in the war because there was no such thing as a “conscientious objector” in Hitler’s Germany, and he risked his life in the act of desertion.

One of the many reasons I was convinced to convert to Catholicism was my investigation of the claims against the character of Joseph Ratzinger, and my findings that it was all terribly untrue. The slanders against him are despicable and really need to stop.
 
LaMar said:
It’s funny for me to see a bunch of people indulging in heads of pins arguments. There’s no evidence for either the Pope or the LDS Prophet actually getting any divine guidance or revelation.

They’re just two fellas who have the (unenviable) task of running multi-billion dollar corporations. Of course they’re both going to get stressed out, make mistakes, put their feet in their mouths,** change doctrine (Vatican II, anyone?)** to suit the needs of the time and otherwise do what any fairly competent CEO is going to do in similar circumstances.

The current LDS prophet was a big fan of Communist East Germany, and made a close ally of a cruel dictator named Erich Hoenecker, who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. The current Pope was a big fan of Naziism and a former Hitler Youth leader. Obviously they both lacked any claim of divine inspiration in the past (LOL!).

It’s always easier to simply quit thinking critically and let someone else tell you what to do. If you people really believe in God (Catholic or Mormon) I think it’s an insult to your creator(s?) to do this. Try thinking for yourselves, and allowing for the fact that your leaders might make an occasional gaffe. This means you’ll have to take a bit of responsibility for your own actions, but it’ll also free you up to have a more authentic spiritual experience.
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Tell us what doctrine was changed with VaticanII.
 
ibkc said:
Look, I appreciate your cynical wit and your strong anti-religious opinions, but you are flat-out wrong about this one. The current Pope came from a family which was strongly critical of Naziism. His father was forced to move around to avoid them, and the young Joseph Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth in name only. He was on the rolls because ALL German youth were required to be. He never attended a single meeting. He was drafted late in the war because there was no such thing as a “conscientious objector” in Hitler’s Germany, and he risked his life in the act of desertion.

One of the many reasons I was convinced to convert to Catholicism was my investigation of the claims against the character of Joseph Ratzinger, and my findings that it was all terribly untrue. The slanders against him are despicable and really need to stop.
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Apologies and retractions, but only for the “leader” part. Apparently he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

As far as “never attended a single meeting”, do you have any support for this? I see photos of the little guy in his uniform in various places. Did he wear his Hitler Youth uniform for the portrait at home, or what?

The Pope’s Nazi Past, on MSNBC
msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

Papal Hopeful Is Former Hitler Youth
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article382076.ece
 
LaMar said:
Apologies and retractions, but only for the “leader” part. Apparently he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

As far as “never attended a single meeting”, do you have any support for this? I see photos of the little guy in his uniform in various places. Did he wear his Hitler Youth uniform for the portrait at home, or what?

The Pope’s Nazi Past, on MSNBC
msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

Papal Hopeful Is Former Hitler Youth
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article382076.ece
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It has been mentioned before, and I repeat, that ALL German youth were required to belong to the appropriate groups. Such is the characteristic of a totalitarian regime.

He jumped ship the first chance he got.
 
LaMar said:
Apologies and retractions, but only for the “leader” part. Apparently he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

As far as “never attended a single meeting”, do you have any support for this? I see photos of the little guy in his uniform in various places. %between%
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Really? You do? Care to share any of these?

Nothing in those articles contradicts anything I said, and nothing in them supports your contentions.

While I am at it, your assertions that Jesus never existed at all are also part of the realm of crackpots and tinfoil-hatters.
 
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