Attracting people to the TLM

[Timothysis]

I don’t think they invited communists and other wackos to the Council of Trent. In the 17th century people were a little more serious about their faith, it seems.

Ah, I see, so protestants at Trent = good, while protestants at Vatican II = bad. I guess this line of thinking is fine as long as you are consistent with it…

 

[Indyann]

I’d really like to see the use of the word ignorant curtailed. Do you really think you’ll sway someone to see the merit of your argument by use of adversarial terms?

Ignorant is not an adversearial term. Most people are “ignorant” of many subjects. Look it up!

I would guess most are more “ignorant” than they are cognizant of neuro surgery. I know I am. I wouldn’t know which vessels to cauterize and which ones to sever with the scalpal. Would you?

There is no shame in ignorance. But to remain ignorant in a subject that one is “spouting off” about is not very smart.

 

[ProVobis]

So, you are saying that all the persecuted Christians and martyrs who are dying to this day, all died at a Latin Mass?

Well, I haven’t heard of any saint dying at a Novus Ordo. Or dying to get to one, for that matter.

 

[Indyann]

Well, I haven’t heard of any saint dying at a Novus Ordo. Or dying to get to one, for that matter.

Then you should probably read about the numerous lay Catholics, priests and deacons who have been slaughtered in Iraq and other places in the Middle East. They are martyrs. Automatic Saints.
Those people are dying to attend Mass. (not sure which rite, but most likely the OF)

I would not be at all surprised if some were canonized some day.

 

[Ockham]

If I have any agenda it is to defend the Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, whether that sacrament is consecrated in the EF, OF, the Divine Liturgy or what have you. If “most people don’t like the Novus Ordo,” then I think it speaks volumes about their grasp of the Church, the liturgy and Christ’s Presence in Holy Communion.

So you spend time defending the Novus Ordo in a Traditional Catholic forum? That would be like going into a Boston Red Sox forum to stick up for the Yankees. It should be of no surprise that people in a Traditional Catholic forum do not share a love for the Novus Ordo. Otherwise why go to the trouble of often traveling great distances, learning a foreign language, and studying a more complex liturgy?

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Perhaps you can comment on this;
*
“The sacred and holy, general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost … grants, as far as regards the holy Synod itself, to all and each one throughout the whole of Germany, whether ecclesiastics or seculars, of whatsoever degree, estate, condition, quality they be, who may wish to repair to this ecumenical and general Council, the public faith and full security, which they call a safe-conduct … so as that they may and shall have it in their power in all liberty to confer, make proposals, and treat on those things which are to be treated of in the said Synod; to come freely and safely to the said ecumenical Council, and there remain and abide, and propose therein, as well in writing as by word of mouth, as many articles as to them shall seem good, and to confer and dispute, without any abuse or contumely, with the Fathers, or with those who may have been selected by the said holy Synod; as also to withdraw whensoever they shall think fit.*”

And what is this from? The thirteenth session of the Council of Trent.

"*We should make several important observations here.

First, the Council of Trent both invited and offered safe passage to Protestants who wished to come and participate at this ecumenical council.

Second, Trent invited Protestants of all social and ecclesiastical rank to share their theological views, propose topics for debate, and generally participate in the daily affairs of this ecumenical council. "*

So, your constant mantra of “there were protestants at Vatican II” can just as well be applied against the Council of Trent, yet you refuse to do that. Why? If protestants are bad at one council they should be bad at another. Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit this?

This is nothing but a type of religious bigotry. What do you mean “the true Mass?” Does that mean that every other liturgy in the Church is somehow false? How is one form of the Mass superior to another in the means by which its efficacy is heightened or lessened? Is it possible for Christ to be “more present” in one Mass and “less present” in another or is Christ “equally present” in all valid consecrations? If Christ is “equally present” in a non-TLM Mass, is this or is it not a “true Mass?”

Its only been 40 years since the promulgation of the Pauline Missal. What do you want, wholesale massacres of 20 year olds in order to have someone die for the Mass?!?!?

You don’t like the “Novus Ordo;” is THAT crossing the line?!?!?

1.- Nothing came of inviting Protestants to that Council. Nothing. Did it ever occur to you that the Church may have been making an attempt to bring them back into the Catholic Church? That seems to be the most logical thing to me, because nothing Protestant resulted from the Council of trent. And atleast Trent didn’t also have Buddhists and other types of false religions present. Vatican II did.

2.- Christ is present where the consecrated Host is. As for Christ being present at the Novus Ordo, He is present, but as Mother Angelica once said, it’s spoiled. Not to mention CITH and EMs which spoil things as well.

3.- I never said that. I’m just saying no saint has ever stuck up for the NO.

4.- No it isn’t crossing the line. I and other Traditional Catholics don’t like it because it was made to draw closer to the Protestants.

 

[Ockham]

Ignorant is not an adversearial term. Most people are “ignorant” of many subjects. Look it up!.

I’m aware of the definition and the perception most people have of it. It is the perception that is adversarial and most people’s reality.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

So you spend time defending the Novus Ordo in a Traditional Catholic forum? That would be like going into a Boston Red Sox forum to stick up for the Yankees. It should be of no surprise that people in a Traditional Catholic forum do not share a love for the Novus Ordo. Otherwise why go to the trouble of often traveling great distances, learning a foreign language, and studying a more complex liturgy?

Exactly something that has never made sense to me. Good post Ockham!

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, I haven’t heard of any saint dying at a Novus Ordo. Or dying to get to one, for that matter.

Tragically, Catholics have been martyred while at Mass in the OF, so technically a saint has died at a Novus Ordo.

I know you are tongue-in-cheek, but we can’t be caught saying that there has not been a saint in the Church since the TLM was suppressed.

 

[Timothysis]

It should be of no surprise that people in a Traditional Catholic forum do not share a love for the Novus Ordo.

There are many things in this forum that come as quite a surprise to me, many of which can hardly be considered Catholic. I can honestly say that the last thing I would want to be is a “traditional” Catholic.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, the OP originally asked for ideas on how to attract people to the Extrodinary Form of the Mass. I and others responded to give suggestions, one of which was to only highlight the positive aspects of the EF and not to run down the OF. It is certainly possible to say “this is a wonderful thing” without also saying “and this other thing stinks”. I also mentioned some things that may be abrriers and suggested possible ways around them. For my trouble to assist the OP, I have been told that I have bad taste by others who are not the OP.

Those of us who appreciate both the OF and the EF should be free to post our thoughts in this forum without being told we aren’t welcome. (Completely aside from the fact that unless a moderator bans you, you are free to post anywhere on the forums).

 

[Ockham]

I can honestly say that the last thing I would want to be is a “traditional” Catholic.

So why come into the Traditional Catholic forum and pick fights?

 

[Lormar]

There are many things in this forum that come as quite a surprise to me, many of which can hardly be considered Catholic. I can honestly say that the last thing I would want to be is a “traditional” Catholic.

Tim, I’m glad that you have written this, as insulting as it is to us Traditional Catholics. Now, I have something to tell all of you, and please forgive me for using the terminology that I am most comfortable with.

You novus ordo Catholics have pushed me right back out of the Church. Yes, that is right. I came here hoping to be able to understand more fully what I thought was my fault for not understanding regarding the changes in the Church and all I have encountered are a group of contentious, uncharitable, intolerant and self-righteous Catholics. Who wants to be around people who despise you and everything that you are? I, too, would rather be with my own kind.

You’ve turned me so off to the novus ordo Church that now when I think of it I equate it with CAF and it makes me ill.

There are many nice people here but some of you go beyond the pale. But none of you ever get banned, only those whose views are too traditional. You tolerate any and everything here and you discuss subjects that have no business being discussed on the world wide web and should be confined to the confessional.

My purpose of this is to tell you that it goes both ways; you turn people very much off to your views as well.

 

[EasterJoy]

So you spend time defending the Novus Ordo in a Traditional Catholic forum? That would be like going into a Boston Red Sox forum to stick up for the Yankees. It should be of no surprise that people in a Traditional Catholic forum do not share a love for the Novus Ordo. Otherwise why go to the trouble of often traveling great distances, learning a foreign language, and studying a more complex liturgy?

No, no, no. This is not Red Sox and Yankees. That is just our point. That analogy is not going to work towards the desired end.

You are, rather, trying to figure out how to get people who grew up with modern music–some (maybe most) of which is really awful and some which music scholars would put on the same level as anything ever written, but it is what their ears are used to–to be willing to try Mozart and Rossini. They may think the masterpieces of the past are irrelevant, are impossible to understand, are too difficult, and so on. That is where the challenge lies.

Our point is this: How many will you get to make the effort to give those masters a chance when the first thing out of your mouth is along the lines of “when are you going to stop listening to that trash and start listening to real music?” I think you’ll get a situation as there is in music now, where certain offices of juvenile detention have literally tried to punish young people waiting to be picked up by their parents by “forcing” them to listen to Mozart while they wait!

According to this analogy, if we are successful, then what those unfamiliar with anything but modern music are going to find is that the really good stuff going on now in modern music is the stuff that has the most in common with Mozart and Rossini. Even if they don’t become primarily become partisans of opera or symphonic music, they will have experienced something that helps them recognize what is best in their own preferred genre. The OF can be done in a way that shines with true Catholic theology and a sensitivity that is not at cross-purposes with the EF, after all.

If all that happens by exposing more Catholics to the TLM is that the way the OF is actually done truly becomes informed by the best in the EF, then that will be a huge step in the right direction. That would be a liturgical triumph, right there. IMHO, it would do the Church more good than to triple attendance at the EF, because it would benefit the Catholics who can’t be convinced to go to an EF Mass themselves, or who don’t “get it” when they do. I think that is far better than to simply despair of the OF and to make the goal getting a token number of fellow Catholics onto the “life raft” of the EF.

If you want to keep believing that the EF is the enemy of the OF, and vice versa, I think you’ll not reach your goal of generally improving the quality of liturgy in the Church in the United States by reconnecting it with what was best about the traditional celebrations of the Mass. You may feel good about your efforts, but your chances of success will be far lower.

 

[Timothysis]

1.- Nothing came of inviting Protestants to that Council. Nothing. Did it ever occur to you that the Church may have been making an attempt to bring them back into the Catholic Church? That seems to be the most logical thing to me, because nothing Protestant resulted from the Council of trent. And atleast Trent didn’t also have Buddhists and other types of false religions present. Vatican II did.

The Church did, in the 1960s, the same thing it did in the 1560s and invited protestants to attend and even participate in its council sessions. Why is it you give the Council of Trent a pass but not the Vatican II Council? You maintain that "nothing Protestant resulted from the Council of trent." Can you tell me what protestant resulted from Vatican II? And I mean explicits, not the same mantra of hand holding/shaking.

2.- Christ is present where the consecrated Host is. As for Christ being present at the Novus Ordo, He is present, but as Mother Angelica once said, it’s spoiled. Not to mention CITH and EMs which spoil things as well.

Tell me, please, how a validly consecrated host, which is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ is “spoiled.” Is it that the host is spoiled or just your desire to have things the way YOU want them. As for your representation of Mother Angelica’s remarks, keep in mind that her community celebrates the OF.

3.- I never said that. I’m just saying no saint has ever stuck up for the NO.

How would you know?!?!? There have been multitudes of religious and lay alike in places like China and Vietnam, not to mention the Middle East who have been killed simply for being Catholic. What makes you so spiritually superior to them?

4.- No it isn’t crossing the line. I and other Traditional Catholics don’t like it because it was made to draw closer to the Protestants.

“To draw closer to protestants.” What does that even mean? By definition a Catholic liturgy is Catholic! Perhaps you would mind visiting my thread in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum titled “Protestant Elements in the Pauline Missal.” So far, no one has come up with one thing from the missal that is protestant. Perhaps you can clue us in.

 

[EasterJoy]

Tim, I’m glad that you have written this, as insulting as it is to us Traditional Catholics. Now, I have something to tell all of you, and please forgive me for using the terminology that I am most comfortable with.

You novus ordo Catholics have pushed me right back out of the Church. Yes, that is right. I came here hoping to be able to understand more fully what I thought was my fault for not understanding regarding the changes in the Church and all I have encountered are a group of contentious, uncharitable, intolerant and self-righteous Catholics. Who wants to be around people who despise you and everything that you are? I, too, would rather be with my own kind.

You’ve turned me so off to the novus ordo Church that now when I think of it I equate it with CAF and it makes me ill.

There are many nice people here but some of you go beyond the pale. But none of you ever get banned, only those whose views are too traditional. You tolerate any and everything here and you discuss subjects that have no business being discussed on the world wide web and should be confined to the confessional.

My purpose of this is to tell you that it goes both ways; you turn people very much off to your views as well.

Guys, guys…the Lord desires that we be one. How much of reconciling with your brothers and sisters is your responsibility? Whatever we think of each other, Christ died for us and chose us to be His Body in this world. We don’t get to choose the team. We get to play for the team the Lord chose for us to play on the best we can, doing our best to make everyone on it the best possible Christian. Let’s keep the main thing the main thing.

Let me clarify something: When I say that some of the arguments in these threads are pointless, I do not mean to say that the points have no basis in fact. I mean to say that I don’t think those particular facts, used in that particular way, are going to further the goals that traditional Catholics have, which I believe are these: a) increase the availability and appreciation of the EF of the Mass and b) increase the degree to which the actual celebration of the OF is informed by the understanding, in mind and in heart, forged by nearly 2,000 years of Catholics coming together to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I think there are some traditional Catholics who thing that goal (b) is a pipedream, that the OF is beyond help. I respectfully disagree, and a lot of truly traditional Catholics, including many many in the clergy, disagree as well. I hope we can continue to respect each other, and love each other in Christian charity, in spite of our differences.

 

[At_Trent]

I can honestly say that the last thing I would want to be is a “traditional” Catholic.

Then you certainly reject so much.

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”

• Pope St. Pius X

 

[Timothysis]

I came here hoping to be able to understand more fully what I thought was my fault for not understanding regarding the changes in the Church and all I have encountered are a group of contentious, uncharitable, intolerant and self-righteous Catholics. Who wants to be around people who despise you and everything that you are? I, too, would rather be with my own kind.

Odd, because I noticed the same in those who label themselves “traditionalists.”

You’ve turned me so off to the novus ordo Church that now when I think of it I equate it with CAF and it makes me ill.
Lormar;6557685:

Sad, that when you think of the consecrated Body and Blood of Jesus Christ it makes you “ill.” Perhaps you should talk to a priest.
Lormar;6557685:

There are many nice people here but some of you go beyond the pale. But none of you ever get banned, only those whose views are too traditional.

I’ve been suspended once for calling an anti-Semite a “loser” (note: he was a "traditionalist) and once again for harassing a moderator(!). Why, exactly, should I be banned? Is this a discussion forum or just a discussion forum for those who agree with you?

You tolerate any and everything here and you discuss subjects that have no business being discussed on the world wide web and should be confined to the confessional.

Such as…?

My purpose of this is to tell you that it goes both ways; you turn people very much off to your views as well.

You are correct; it does go both ways. It would seem, however, that I am mature enough to handle it.

 

[Timothysis]

Then you certainly reject so much.

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”

• Pope St. Pius X

You may equate Traditional Catholicism with being “traditional,” but I certainly don’t.

 

[At_Trent]

You may equate Traditional Catholicism with being “traditional,” but I certainly don’t.

Then you disagree with many saints.