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Timothysis
Guest
No, I disagree with those of the past 40 years or so who have chosen to label themselves “traditionalists.” There is a big, big difference.
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Lormar
Guest
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ProVobis
Guest
I don’t consider myself a traditionalist as such, I’m as progressive as the guy next to me, but the problem when you compare OF vs EF is that you’re throwing a mighty genre of vernaculars and options and cultures and music against a now much tinier (although still significant) element of the Catholic Church, most of whose supporters (and centuries of them) are now deceased. If we could resurrect all of them, of course, we could have a fairer battle, but we live in the modern world which only wants to “move on” to the next season. I think JPII recognized this when he issued the Ecclesia Dei to respect the aspritions of the traditionalists, but that didn’t even begin to level the playing field. The Novus Ordo (now the OF and not necessarily the English OF) is large and can theoretically wipe out the EF, given the opportunity. In a way, it’s like the Yankees vs Red Sox. It’s baseball and baseball doesn’t need defenders. And neither the OF, in my opinion. It controls the Catholic Church as baseball controls the summer sports mind. I think it’s important to keep that in mind as other minds like to survive.
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At_Trent
Guest
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Timothysis
Guest
I don’t recall the Bishop of Rome calling the OF “protestant.”
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At_Trent
Guest
Now we change the subject ?
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At_Trent
Guest
Tim, your distorted stereotype of anyone who considers him/herself a traditional Catholic is odd.
Have you ever read what H.H. BXI said about the NO while a Cardinal ?
Have you ever read what H.H. BXI said about the NO while a Cardinal ?
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Indyann
Guest
have you read what he said about the OF as a Pope?
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Timothysis
Guest
I have read what H.H. BXVI has said about the OF while POPE!!! Have you??? I recall that he said that both the OF and the EF are two expressions of the same rite! I don’t disagree with that but I’ve read many here who do.
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Ockham
Guest
Actually, I attend both forms in my city. I much prefer the EF but also attend the OF in order to support the entire Church. There are local OFs I can’t stand and pray for those involved. It seems to me this Traditional Catholic forum would be a much more peaceful place if anti-TCs would find more productive things to do with their time than instigate conflict and division.
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At_Trent
Guest
That’s the second question you have dodged.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes. Make this into a battle of EF vs. OF, and the TLM loses. The EF won’t even get a chance to be seen. Make this into the EF as a unique insight into the OF (oh, people love insights, these days) then the TLM will get the fair look it truly deserves. Even if a Catholic doesn’t come away as an adherent to the EF, the way they see the OF will be changed.I don’t consider myself a traditionalist as such, I’m as progressive as the guy next to me, but the problem when you compare OF vs EF is that you’re throwing a mighty genre of vernaculars and options and cultures and music against a now much tinier (although still significant) element of the Catholic Church, most of whose supporters (and centuries of them) are now deceased. If we could resurrect all of them, of course, we could have a fairer battle, but we live in the modern world which only wants to “move on” to the next season. I think JPII recognized this when he issued the Ecclesia Dei to respect the aspritions of the traditionalists, but that didn’t even begin to level the playing field. The Novus Ordo (now the OF and not necessarily the English OF) is large and can theoretically wipe out the EF, given the opportunity. In a way, it’s like the Yankees vs Red Sox. It’s baseball and baseball doesn’t need defenders. And neither the OF, in my opinion. It controls the Catholic Church as baseball controls the summer sports mind. I think it’s important to keep that in mind as other minds like to survive.
There are people who remember quite well that the EF owned the whole field until the Vatican decided that it didn’t. Traditionalists may not realize it, but there are Catholics who are deathly afraid that traditionalists could succeed in getting the NO suppressed! Between you and me, I don’t think the suppression of the NO is even on the table as far as the bishops are concerned, and only the bishops count. Just because the fear is not based in reality, though, does not mean that it isn’t a real fear.
I think it is very important not to inflame that fear, if the goal is to overcome the reasons people have for foot dragging when it comes to trying the TLM. If we want to attract Catholics to the TLM, we want to get them in the door without the fear that someone is trying to take something familiar away from them. Get them in the door with an open mind, get them in the door feeling they can be open about what they like when they get there without someone making that into an indictment against what they grew up with, get them in the door feeling that it is OK to learn gradually, that the Latin isn’t a huge barrier, and so on. To do that, the idea that there is some sort of a competition needs to go away, I think.
Even if it is your great dream that the TLM supplant the NO and become the OF, the last thing in the world you would want is to be open about that. Make this into a Cold War, and the TLM will lose, I’m convinced of that. In that case, I think the whole Church loses. That would be too bad.
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Indyann
Guest
There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.
In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your own authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful. Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 22: “Sacrae Liturgiae moderatio ab Ecclesiae auctoritate unice pendet quae quidem est apud Apostolicam Sedem et, ad normam iuris, apud Episcopum”).
Nothing is taken away, then, from the authority of the Bishop, whose role remains that of being watchful that all is done in peace and serenity. Should some problem arise which the parish priest cannot resolve, the local Ordinary will always be able to intervene, in full harmony, however, with all that has been laid down by the new norms of the Motu Proprio.
Furthermore, I invite you, dear Brothers, to send to the Holy See an account of your experiences, three years after this Motu Proprio has taken effect. If truly serious difficulties come to light, ways to remedy them can be sought.
Dear Brothers, with gratitude and trust, I entrust to your hearts as Pastors these pages and the norms of the Motu Proprio. Let us always be mindful of the words of the Apostle Paul addressed to the presbyters of Ephesus: “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the Church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son” (Acts 20:28).
I entrust these norms to the powerful intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church, and I cordially impart my Apostolic Blessing to you, dear Brothers, to the parish priests of your dioceses, and to all the priests, your co-workers, as well as to all your faithful.
Given at Saint Peter’s, 7 July 2007
Back to Index Page
Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
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www.ewtn.com
Part of the letter to the Bishops at the time of the Moto Proprio.
Now if you wish to argue with the Pope, you are “ignorant”. OH,oh, there’s that word again!
In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your own authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful. Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 22: “Sacrae Liturgiae moderatio ab Ecclesiae auctoritate unice pendet quae quidem est apud Apostolicam Sedem et, ad normam iuris, apud Episcopum”).
Nothing is taken away, then, from the authority of the Bishop, whose role remains that of being watchful that all is done in peace and serenity. Should some problem arise which the parish priest cannot resolve, the local Ordinary will always be able to intervene, in full harmony, however, with all that has been laid down by the new norms of the Motu Proprio.
Furthermore, I invite you, dear Brothers, to send to the Holy See an account of your experiences, three years after this Motu Proprio has taken effect. If truly serious difficulties come to light, ways to remedy them can be sought.
Dear Brothers, with gratitude and trust, I entrust to your hearts as Pastors these pages and the norms of the Motu Proprio. Let us always be mindful of the words of the Apostle Paul addressed to the presbyters of Ephesus: “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the Church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son” (Acts 20:28).
I entrust these norms to the powerful intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church, and I cordially impart my Apostolic Blessing to you, dear Brothers, to the parish priests of your dioceses, and to all the priests, your co-workers, as well as to all your faithful.
Given at Saint Peter’s, 7 July 2007
Back to Index Page
Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com
Part of the letter to the Bishops at the time of the Moto Proprio.
Now if you wish to argue with the Pope, you are “ignorant”. OH,oh, there’s that word again!
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At_Trent
Guest
Hmm, do you realize about 1/10,000 % of Catholics argue the OF is inferior to the EF ? How can the EF lose ? Do you ever visit The New Liturgical Movement site ?
Anyhow, the thread is about how to attract people to the TLM and we have those who don’t attend it coming here and telling those who do how to promote it. Those are the ones who fear the EF. So does Satan.
Either those who consider themselves traditionalists need to totally ignore those who post to disrupt their discussions, or the forum should be closed. Seldom is there ever a thread started about Roman Catholic Spirituality itself that get’s many replies after the first day. Only the divisive threads remain at the top of the list. Any new member or guest who sees the forum description and thinks he/she will find discussion of such will be disappointed.
Those who do not consider themselves traditional Roman Catholics won’t let it happen. And neither will those traditionalists who start threads doomed to incite divisive behavior let it happen. This sub fora , as it currently is, is nothing but a flame forum and an embarrassment to the Faith.
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Ockham
Guest
I agree. My theory is the most aggressive adversaries here are EMHCs, lectors, greeters and hidden agenda change agents looking for gay marriage, female ordination and married priests.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I find it problematic, then that the 1/10,000% of Catholics who do think the OF is inferior seem to post out of proportion to their numbers on these threads that wonder how to address the issue that the TLM isn’t more well-attended than it is. Although I would contend it is unfair and uncharitable to judge an entire group based on what one knows to be a very small sampling of that group, this does serve to skew one’s mental picture of the traditional Catholic population.
At any rate, I’m thinking that lumping Catholics who don’t already go to the TLM in with Satan is probably not the best strategy for changing the numbers. I have found that Catholics are insulted but remarkably unalarmed on their own behalf when asked by people who disagree with them to contemplate the possibility that they are cooperating with evil. Maybe the rhetoric from the JWs and Mormons have immunized us against that one, but that method is has a very poor record of success. Trying to tell a Catholic that he has essentially been an unwitting Lutheran since birth is another strategy that is not only unlikely to work, but also not particularly charitable. You don’t have to think it is any way insulting to be called a Lutheran to realize that it is still a grave insult to tell someone who intended to be a faithful Catholic that he or she actually succeeded in being Protestant, instead. What charge of incompetence could be worse than that?
I was at a TLM last Sunday. There are also many among my relatives who think that female priests and allowing marriage after ordination (which they ignorantly believe to be the same as ordaining married men to the priesthood) would be just peachy. I don’t think that the best way to educate their opinions is to start with the conjecture that they are under the sway of the devil.
OTOH, I’ve found that acting as if someone has far better motives than you have any reason to believe that they actually have is not always a bad thing. People have this funny way of living up to positive expectations.
“I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35
If you want to convince anyone that you know this great way to increase access to grace, I think we have to keep our eyes on the ball: keep the main thing the main thing. Live the virtues first, then worry about what words to use.
As Mother Theresa used to like to say: “God did not call me to be successful. God called me to be faithful.” If we think it our task to promote the TLM, we have to promote it in a way that remains faithful to the plain sense of the Gospel. Otherwise, we fail. If the promotion is faithful, but falls on deaf ears, well, we have done what we could with the means we were given. We can leave the rest to God.
My point is that the worst way to treat a paranoid is to actually attack him. It only reinforces the delusion.
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ProVobis
Guest
On the other hand, bring on all the TLM/EF detractors. It sure will increase awareness of the EF. It sure has increased the size of the SSPX Mass attendees.
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Blessed_Karl
Guest
Well thank you to all for completely detracting from my initial topic.
The whole “OF is evil” attitude has to go. Present the TLM as a unique and beautiful expression of the faith is the way to go.
The whole “OF is evil” attitude has to go. Present the TLM as a unique and beautiful expression of the faith is the way to go.
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EasterJoy
Guest
On a more practical note:
I have a friend, married to a Catholic, who has remarked that the Catholic Church is the most user-unfriendly church he’s ever attended. He’s only been to Masses in English, mind you. He points out that if you don’t know what is going on when you walk into the door, you can expect no help from the missal. If you don’t understand how the missal is laid out to start with, you are never going to figure it out in time to keep up. There is nothing in a typical missal that explains to his satisfaction even what it is that goes on at Mass. Most people do not enjoy the feeling that they don’t know what everyone else just assumes they should, but all the non-Catholic is sure about at a typical Mass is that he has no idea what is going on. My first experiences at a TLM were like that, and I already knew some Latin! Even knowing intellectually that it would be OK to be a newbie, I still felt afraid I’d “give myself away.”
I would suggest that one way to attract people to the TLM is to produce a guide to keeping up with where one should be at any particular time for that day’s Mass. I mean something very basic, something that assumes that the person knows zero Latin, maybe has never even been to Mass, certainly has no formal training in what the gestures of the Mass mean, and who will get lost at some point and will find the guide useful in real time for catching up. There might be a section in back that answers FAQs.
It might also be useful to have a tutorial in the half-hour immediately before Mass starts and maybe a get-together in the parish hall afterwards, with a Q&A. People hate feeling that they are incompetent when they are expected to be competent. If you make being a learner and OK and respected position, more Catholics will be willing to expose that they are learners. Symphonies and opera companies have the pre-performance tutorials of this kind, and they are very popular.
I have a friend, married to a Catholic, who has remarked that the Catholic Church is the most user-unfriendly church he’s ever attended. He’s only been to Masses in English, mind you. He points out that if you don’t know what is going on when you walk into the door, you can expect no help from the missal. If you don’t understand how the missal is laid out to start with, you are never going to figure it out in time to keep up. There is nothing in a typical missal that explains to his satisfaction even what it is that goes on at Mass. Most people do not enjoy the feeling that they don’t know what everyone else just assumes they should, but all the non-Catholic is sure about at a typical Mass is that he has no idea what is going on. My first experiences at a TLM were like that, and I already knew some Latin! Even knowing intellectually that it would be OK to be a newbie, I still felt afraid I’d “give myself away.”
I would suggest that one way to attract people to the TLM is to produce a guide to keeping up with where one should be at any particular time for that day’s Mass. I mean something very basic, something that assumes that the person knows zero Latin, maybe has never even been to Mass, certainly has no formal training in what the gestures of the Mass mean, and who will get lost at some point and will find the guide useful in real time for catching up. There might be a section in back that answers FAQs.
It might also be useful to have a tutorial in the half-hour immediately before Mass starts and maybe a get-together in the parish hall afterwards, with a Q&A. People hate feeling that they are incompetent when they are expected to be competent. If you make being a learner and OK and respected position, more Catholics will be willing to expose that they are learners. Symphonies and opera companies have the pre-performance tutorials of this kind, and they are very popular.
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ProVobis
Guest
Have you read what he DID about the EF as Pope?
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