Augustine a heretic acording to Greek Orthodox?

[marybell1961]

Hello Forum,

Today I had occasion to see a Greek Orthodox church. Their priest gave a talk explaining some of the features of their faith. Many of the things he spoke about fit perfectly with my Catholic faith. Of course, there are differences that were mentioned and seemed to be brought up to point out the error of our ways, those of us who give allegiance to the Pope.

He lost me when he stated that Augustine was a heretic, for stating that we are all born into sin. He says we should understand that we are born into sins plural, and this is where they part ways also on the belief in the Immaculate Conception. He says that Mary was sinless by choice and not by an act of God. She had to be “fully human” in order for Christ to be fully human, and for her to have been protected from the so-called “original sin” would have made her not one of us.

My head was spinning when I left. The questions I had at first we answered, and replaced by even more troubling ones.

How can we ever have reconciliation when we are calling each other names!

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Forum,

Today I had occasion to see a Greek Orthodox church. Their priest gave a talk explaining some of the features of their faith. Many of the things he spoke about fit perfectly with my Catholic faith. Of course, there are differences that were mentioned and seemed to be brought up to point out the error of our ways, those of us who give allegiance to the Pope.

He lost me when he stated that Augustine was a heretic, for stating that we are all born into sin. He says we should understand that we are born into sins plural, and this is where they part ways also on the belief in the Immaculate Conception. He says that Mary was sinless by choice and not by an act of God. She had to be “fully human” in order for Christ to be fully human, and for her to have been protected from the so-called “original sin” would have made her not one of us.

My head was spinning when I left. The questions I had at first we answered, and replaced by even more troubling ones.

How can we ever have reconciliation when we are calling each other names!

He wasn’t calling names, he was stating a position. Of course I would not have been so insensitive as to use the “H” word in this case. I would have probably told you he taught some errors which to Orthodox seem …well…errors

Augustine was a very influential seminal thinker in the west, some of his ideas were taken whole with no sugar, but some of his ideas were rejected or modified by the western church, and more of his ideas were rejected by the eastern church.

For example, his ideas about Original Sin and the damnation of infants added a very strong color to the western belief system. These ideas eventually led to the popular counter idea of Limbus Infantium, as a way of modifying the fate of innocent children. The church may or may not have actually taught this concept but it gained a widespread following in recent centuries as an antidote to the more severe teaching of Augustine and Aquinas, and probably other Latin scholars in the tradition.

The Augustinian notion of Original Sin and humankind’s depravity also led to the need to “protect” Mary with an ‘immaculate conception’ which, quite frankly, wasn’t in the original script for early Christians.

Augustine also promoted the concept of double-predestination, which the church rejected. The church does teach predestination, but not as he taught it. That was picked up again by some Protestants (essentially Calvinists), who apparently actually DO sometimes read the Fathers of the church and learned it from him.

He did not have much influence on the east, he wrote exclusively in Latin, but some of his writings are quite popular or at least read among Orthodox today. I like his “confessions”, it is well written, I also did very much like his “City of God” which I read when I was a young Latin Catholic.

Michael

 

[Nickkname]

Hello Forum,

Today I had occasion to see a Greek Orthodox church. Their priest gave a talk explaining some of the features of their faith. Many of the things he spoke about fit perfectly with my Catholic faith. Of course, there are differences that were mentioned and seemed to be brought up to point out the error of our ways, those of us who give allegiance to the Pope.

He lost me when he stated that Augustine was a heretic, for stating that we are all born into sin. He says we should understand that we are born into sins plural, and this is where they part ways also on the belief in the Immaculate Conception. He says that Mary was sinless by choice and not by an act of God. She had to be “fully human” in order for Christ to be fully human, and for her to have been protected from the so-called “original sin” would have made her not one of us.

My head was spinning when I left. The questions I had at first we answered, and replaced by even more troubling ones.

How can we ever have reconciliation when we are calling each other names!

Okay, so when was Original Sin ever meant to be a part of the human nature? As I recall, God never said, “Go ahead and eat from the tree in the center of the garden. You’ll be committing a sin, which will cause all your descendants to be born into bondage, but hey, that’s what I want.” Original Sin was not a part of God’s plan. Sure he brought a greater good out of it - the coming of the Redeemer - and hence the fall of man is sometimes called a “happy mistake”, but that dosen’t mean that God willed Original Sin. So the Priest would have to explain how being born into bondage is totally human. From my understanding, man was created with Original Justice, and by the death of Christ, man received graces even greater than what he had before the fall.

 

[Addai]

Hello Forum,

Today I had occasion to see a Greek Orthodox church. Their priest gave a talk explaining some of the features of their faith. Many of the things he spoke about fit perfectly with my Catholic faith. Of course, there are differences that were mentioned and seemed to be brought up to point out the error of our ways, those of us who give allegiance to the Pope.

He lost me when he stated that Augustine was a heretic, for stating that we are all born into sin. He says we should understand that we are born into sins plural, and this is where they part ways also on the belief in the Immaculate Conception. He says that Mary was sinless by choice and not by an act of God. She had to be “fully human” in order for Christ to be fully human, and for her to have been protected from the so-called “original sin” would have made her not one of us.

My head was spinning when I left. The questions I had at first we answered, and replaced by even more troubling ones.

How can we ever have reconciliation when we are calling each other names!

I’ve also heard the H word used colloquially concerning St. Augustine from EO regarding that issue as well. As bad as they think that doctrine / position is, it doesn’t make sense to use it regarding a saint who is also celebrated on their liturgical calendar as well, because by defintion you cannnot be both a saint and a heretic! It’s actually absurd if you think about it…

 

[marybell1961]

I keep posting and then losing my post before I can post it.

Thanks for your replies, I will keep reading…

 

[bpbasilphx]

St. Augustine is commemorated on 15 June in the Synekdimos (prayer book) published by ASTIR and on the calendar of the Church of Greece. The Old Calendar Synod of Met. Kyprianos of Fili calls him “St. Augustine the Great” on their calendar.

He is one father among many in the east, and is not the universal solvent he became in the west.

There is a faction in Orthodox that blames St. Augustine for everything wrong from acid rain to flat tires. Ignore these people.

 

[Hesychios]

St. Augustine is commemorated on 15 June in the Synekdimos (prayer book) published by ASTIR and on the calendar of the Church of Greece. The Old Calendar Synod of Met. Kyprianos of Fili calls him “St. Augustine the Great” on their calendar.

He is one father among many in the east, and is not the universal solvent he became in the west.

There is a faction in Orthodox that blames St. Augustine for everything wrong from acid rain to flat tires. Ignore these people.

Well heck! :doh2:

I never accused him of acid rain!

But come to think of it…

Oh, nevermind…just ignore me…

 

[steve_b]

Hello Forum,

Today I had occasion to see a Greek Orthodox church. Their priest gave a talk explaining some of the features of their faith. Many of the things he spoke about fit perfectly with my Catholic faith. Of course, there are differences that were mentioned and seemed to be brought up to point out the error of our ways, those of us who give allegiance to the Pope.

Just curious,

Was this “talk” just an open house format, come see what the Greek Orthodox are all about, or was it something different?

Mary:

He lost me when he stated that Augustine was a heretic, for stating that we are all born into sin. He says we should understand that we are born into sins plural, and this is where they part ways also on the belief in the Immaculate Conception.

Re: the H bomb, and the IC Bp Ware, (Gr Orthodox) says an Orthodox who believes in the IC he wouldn’t call them a heretic. Which IMO is a backhanded acceptance

As far as sin(s), sin can be both singular and plural.

Mary:

He says that Mary was sinless by choice and not by an act of God.

IOW, Mary did it, and NOT grace.

his statement is pure pelagianism.

Mary:

She had to be “fully human” in order for Christ to be fully human, and for her to have been protected from the so-called “original sin” would have made her not one of us.

:doh2:

Jesus was like us in everything but sin [Heb 4:15]. Did that disqualify Him from being fully human? No

Was He disqualified from being one of us just because he was without sin? No

So why should God, preserving Mary from original sin, and actual sin by grace, disqualify her from being one of us and fully human? It doesn’t

Mary:

My head was spinning when I left. The questions I had at first we answered, and replaced by even more troubling ones.

How can we ever have reconciliation when we are calling each other names!

Soluition…You can’t fix it…Don’t go there anymore. :twocents:

 

[BartBurk]

Here is an article I found at a Greek Orthodox web site:

goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp

 

[marybell1961]

The Occasion I refer to is at the local greek festival, for the first time ever they had the church open and you could go in at appointed times and be shown the church. I have always been curious so I took the opportunity to go in. I have friends who attend there, so I am wondering what it is that keeps us apart from being in “full communion” with one another.

I did hear the things I report, I swear I hadn’t had any ouzo (yet) ! at that point.

There were several things about the tour that I found very enlightening, in fact the church looks more like what I had expected a “Catholic” church to look like (before the liberals in our area gutted them of all their beauty)

My late husband said our cathedral looks like a “bombed out WW2 church somewhere in Europe that was never restored”. Ouch.

 

[marybell1961]

Here is an article I found at a Greek Orthodox web site:

goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp

very nice, thank you

 

[Peter_J]

marybell,

There certainly are some historical figures that Catholics and Orthodox tend to disagree about, but St. Augustine isn’t one of them.

For example, Catholic tend not to say “Saint Photius”, and Orthodox tend not to say “Saint Thomas Aquinas”; but we can all agree to call Augustine “Saint” (or “Blessed”).

Hope this helps,
Peter.

 

[marybell1961]

So…just for the sake of argument, someone who attends St. Photius G.O. Church might have a bone to pick with someone who belongs to St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic?



Just pokin’ the beehive…

 

[ralphinal]

Almost everyone has written something that is problematic is some way. For some, it is theology, for others it may be racism or something else. I would hope that all of Augustine’s writings are not thrown out by the Orthodox because of a few points of contention. It would be like a modern reader throwing out all of Chrysistom because of his Anti-semetic statements.

 

[marybell1961]

Ralph, that is a really good point.

It gives us another reason to discuss the doctrine of papal infallability - which was one of the stumbling blocks I had to overcome in my journey to Catholicism.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph, that is a really good point.

It gives us another reason to discuss the doctrine of papal infallability - which was one of the stumbling blocks I had to overcome in my journey to Catholicism.

I know what you mean. The infallability is so limited, and it does not mean that popes are always holy people. I wish it did, though. The number of non-Catholics (including EO) who do not understand it is large but understandable. The number of Catholics who get it wrong is crazy.

 

[marybell1961]

The amount of Catholics who aren’t really Catholic at all is staggering.

I have a very good friend who is a lifelong Catholic. When I was coming into the faith, I said to her, “you knew all the time that this was REALLY the body, blood, soul and divinity of the same Jesus that I thought I knew - and you never told me!”

Her response was something like, “you can come to God through many paths” and “I don’t think God is Catholic”.

My head is still spinning.

 

[Peter_J]

So…just for the sake of argument, someone who attends St. Photius G.O. Church might have a bone to pick with someone who belongs to St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic?



Just pokin’ the beehive…

:yup:

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. You might be interested in what Dr. Anthony Dragani, a Catholic, said about two Orthodox saints, Mark of Ephesus and Alexis Toth.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Ralph,

Almost everyone has written something that is problematic is some way. For some, it is theology, for others it may be racism or something else. I would hope that all of Augustine’s writings are not thrown out by the Orthodox because of a few points of contention. It would be like a modern reader throwing out all of Chrysistom because of his Anti-semetic statements.

As the article referenced suggests “the” Orthodox do not throw out everything Augustine wrote but take a cautionary and critical approach to his works. But we don’t discount his many valid contributions.

I thought the article was very balanced. It may be the best thing I ever read on the subject. Quite a few Orthodox are quoted in the article and it is obvous he was and is respected for his holiness. He continues to be studied by Orthodox.

Quite naturally Latin Catholics and Protestants have a lot vested in his more complete set of works, and the developments which stem from them, “we” Orthodox understand that.

Michael