Augustine and Palageus

  • Thread starter Thread starter GramdpaMunster
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

GramdpaMunster

Guest
Palagean’s theology in a watered down form seems to have been adopted by the Catholic church to spite the fact that a church council and a Pope both declared Palageous a heritic and sided with Augustine during this contraversy. I was wondering how Catholic theology has integrated Augustine’s theology of salvation by grace with the doctrine that works can play a part in salvation?
 
Got any proof that the Church adopted the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid?

You know, because the Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:

415 “Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him” (GS 13 § 1).

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

419 “We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, “by propagation, not by imitation” and that it is. . . ‘proper to each’” (Paul VI, CPG § 16).

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom 5:20).

421 Christians believe that “the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator’s love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . .” (GS 2 § 2).
 
Sorry for the length of the response - I’ll try to keep it short:

Quote from “New Advent” an online Catholic encylodedia under “Catholic Doctrine of Justification”:

“Since justification as an application of the Redemption to the individual presupposes the fall of the entire human race, the Council of Trent quite logically begins with the fundamental statement that original sin has weakened and deflected, but not entirely destroyed or extinguished the freedom of the human will”

"While in Baptism infants are forthwith cleansed of the stain of original sin without any preparation on their part, the adult must pass through a moral preparation, which consists essentially in turning from sin and towards God. This entire process receives its first impulse from the supernatural grace of vocation (absolutely independent of man’s merits), and requires an intrinsic union of the Divine and human action, of grace and moral freedom of election, in such a manner, however, that the will can resist, and with full liberty reject the influence of grace.

Two things I’d like to point out here: The fall of man has not completely destroyed the freedom of human will and that moral freedon encompasses the ability to reject the influence of grace.

“Considering merely the psychological analysis of the conversion of sinners, as given by the council, it is at once evident that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man”

Faith alone cannot justify a person.

So you see the Catholic biew of justification seems to be that the fall of man tainted, but did not destroy free will, that free will plays a role in the salvation process and that faith alone cannot justify a person, but that works are necessary to contribute to a persons actual attainment of salvation.

This is semi palagianism. The hard core palagiamism that a person is not really tainted by the fall of Adam and is free to more obey God has been replaced with a modified version that man if free to choose to serve God and faith plus works are something a person actively does to attain salvation.
 
Sorry for the length of the response - I’ll try to keep it short:

Quote from “New Advent” an online Catholic encylodedia under “Catholic Doctrine of Justification”:

“Since justification as an application of the Redemption to the individual presupposes the fall of the entire human race, the Council of Trent quite logically begins with the fundamental statement that original sin has weakened and deflected, but not entirely destroyed or extinguished the freedom of the human will”

"While in Baptism infants are forthwith cleansed of the stain of original sin without any preparation on their part, the adult must pass through a moral preparation, which consists essentially in turning from sin and towards God. This entire process receives its first impulse from the supernatural grace of vocation (absolutely independent of man’s merits), and requires an intrinsic union of the Divine and human action, of grace and moral freedom of election, in such a manner, however, that the will can resist, and with full liberty reject the influence of grace.

Two things I’d like to point out here: The fall of man has not completely destroyed the freedom of human will and that moral freedon encompasses the ability to reject the influence of grace.

“Considering merely the psychological analysis of the conversion of sinners, as given by the council, it is at once evident that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man”

Faith alone cannot justify a person.

So you see the Catholic biew of justification seems to be that the fall of man tainted, but did not destroy free will, that free will plays a role in the salvation process and that faith alone cannot justify a person, but that works are necessary to contribute to a persons actual attainment of salvation.

This is semi palagianism. The hard core palagiamism that a person is not really tainted by the fall of Adam and is free to more obey God has been replaced with a modified version that man if free to choose to serve God and faith plus works are something a person actively does to attain salvation.
So what you have said is that Catholic theology is not Pelagianism. Thats your answer.
From the time of the Apostles Catholicism teaches that the person must respond to the initial Gift of grace received from God if the person wants Life.
The parable of the seed sower, told by Christ Himself, illustrates this reality. God casts His Grace on all types of people, the fertile soil, the rocky ground, the thorny ground. He said that the person must respond to His gift of Grace in order to continue to possess it. The man who was given initial Grace but who allowed the cares and worries of the world to overcome him lost His gift of Grace when he *himself *allowed the thorns and briars to smother the seedling which had sprouted and begun to grown.
Our *response *to that initial grace, called work by you, is essential, the man who tills the soil and keeps it free and fertile allows Grace to grow and remain within him. These works which give life to grace were ‘work’ given to us to do by Christ when He institued the Sacraments for our sake and commanded the Apostles to ‘do them’, - to continue them. Other ‘works’ commanded are the corporal works of mercy;
To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.
Those who lived their Faith, (works, to you), did all those things and were called His sheep and were invited to share eternal life with Him; those who did not live their Faith and ‘do’ those things, (works, to you), were called goats by Him and were given their place in hell with the devil and his angels.

Salvation is a Gift, but it is also a process we are obliged to co-operate with if we want Eternal Life.

Pelagius on the other hand thought he could do it all himself without help, and that is not a Catholic theology.
 
Two things I’d like to point out here: The fall of man has not completely destroyed the freedom of human will and that moral freedon encompasses the ability to reject the influence of grace.
Yes. Catholicism teaches that a weakened will is among the consequences original sin had on the powers of our human nature. The Church rejects the teaching that the will was totally corrupted.
Faith alone cannot justify a person.
So you see the Catholic biew of justification seems to be that the fall of man tainted, but did not destroy free will, that free will plays a role in the salvation process and that faith alone cannot justify a person, but that works are necessary to contribute to a persons actual attainment of salvation.
This is semi palagianism. The hard core palagiamism that a person is not really tainted by the fall of Adam and is free to more obey God has been replaced with a modified version that man if free to choose to serve God and faith plus works are something a person actively does to attain salvation.
The Church teaches that we are saved by grace alone. But we must cooperate with (put to use) that gift. (Read for example the parable of the talents. Mt 25:15-30. The one who did nothing with the gift/talent, freely given to him, was condemned.)

Semi-Pelagianism limits the need and gratuitousness of God’s grace in several ways that are contrary to Catholic teaching. The following is a quote from “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott:
Striving to preserve the freedom of the will and the personal co-operation of man in the process of sanctification,the originators of the error (the semi-pelagians) came to the following conclusions:
a) The primary desire for salvation proceeds from the natural powers of man.
b) Man does not require supernatural help to persevere in virtue to the end.
c) Man can merit de congruo the first grace by his own natural endeavors.

Those[a), b) and c)] are positions that are contrary to Catholic teaching.
What is the Lutheran view of those three semi-pelagian positions? Do you agree with Catholicism that they are erroneous?
 
What is the Lutheran view of those three semi-pelagian positions?
The tradition reformed (Lutheran/Calvinist) view would be to reject all three.
Adams sin corrupted human nature to the point that an individual can not contribute to his/her salvation. God calls (elects) his chosen people. Christ paid the penalty for thier sin, and the person is saved. As in the parable of the talents and the book of James performing works is a manifistation of the salvation. No repentance is evidence that a person’s calling is not real.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top