Augustine sounds Reformed and not Catholic

[Bengoshi]

I think it’s important for the readers to seperate historic Protestantism with easy believism found in contemporary Protestant churches with ideas like “once saved always saved”, decisional regeneration and altar calls. Sometimes your will find that there is too much self-examination to see if someone is truly in the faith with Reformed circles. The Christian life is one of repentance and faith, looking to Christ always in this pattern of the Christian walk. Our assurance rest upon the promises of God, including the grace of discipline of His predestined children.

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

You explained it well!

 

[Bengoshi]

Predestination was NOT and is NOT part of the catholic religion. Augustine also preached that the Blessed Trinity was three separate beings, which is also wrong. We don’t honor him as a saint for preaching two wrong things. But because he stopped a heresy from spreading, hence saving thousands of souls. He also converted thousands more, saving even more souls.

What religion ARE you? Are you just a devils advocate? or do you actually believe in something?

I’m sorry but this post of yours says a lot about your ignorance…

 

[Bengoshi]

I think there is obvious room in Catholic doctrine to disagree about the the specifics here. After all, who here can claim to know the will and mind of God? Although we may meditate on it in order to bring ourselves to Him, we must be careful when dealing with what is strictly His: judgment.

I would say that, in faith, I have come to these conclusions. God offers his grace to all men, just as he died for all men. God then acts in all goodness toward men and allows evil for the sake of goodness. This can be seen in two ways: First, it can be seen generally. God allows evil to exist so that we may love him without coercion. Secondly, God allows evil to exist so that a man may be led to his grace. The grace God offers is in superabudance and is in an infinite well; sometimes he makes us thirsty to desperately search for it.

He acts this way toward the reprobate as well as the elect. The elect are those who cooperate with this grace and can afford to gain more. For one cannot pour more water in their glass without first drinking from it, although Christ has offered us the superabundant water. Likewise, if one pours out his glass he must seek out the well merely to fill the glass from what he has not yet benefited from.

The thirsty can seek water and be quenched just as those who have drank may choose to thirst. For who could say that Judas did not drink of the grace of God? He ate, communed, and witnessed the Lord’s deeds. He even ate our Lord’s flesh! He chose to pass the water that had been given to him and was not quenched. Let us not be deceived. The grace we receive is real but if we choose to forgo that grace, we will justly suffer hell for it.

I tell you that Christ offers us his superabundant water through the Church which is his well. Let us seek this life giving water. Let us offer this water to others, because Christ has chosen to offer it to us in community, His Church which is His mystical body through which He works.

If the Church considers any of these as heresy, I retract them.

Although as a Reformed Evangelical, I don’t totally agree with everything you’ve said, I commend you for a good explanation!

 

[mathematician]

As a mere Anglican, my understanding is that there are two stances towards predestination which the Catholic Church considers legitimate. They are the Thomist and the Molinist. The person who wrote the following halds to the Thomist position, but he mentions the Molinist position is passing:

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

Also a good statement of the Thomist position is the following:

amazon.com/Predestination-Reginald-Garrigou-Lagrange/dp/0895556340

His one failing is that, like most Catholics, he misrepresents the Calvinist position.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think there is obvious room in Catholic doctrine to disagree about the the specifics here. After all, who here can claim to know the will and mind of God? Although we may meditate on it in order to bring ourselves to Him, we must be careful when dealing with what is strictly His: judgment.

I would say that, in faith, I have come to these conclusions. God offers his grace to all men, just as he died for all men. God then acts in all goodness toward men and allows evil for the sake of goodness. This can be seen in two ways: First, it can be seen generally. God allows evil to exist so that we may love him without coercion. Secondly, God allows evil to exist so that a man may be led to his grace. The grace God offers is in superabudance and is in an infinite well; sometimes he makes us thirsty to desperately search for it.

He acts this way toward the reprobate as well as the elect. The elect are those who cooperate with this grace and can afford to gain more. For one cannot pour more water in their glass without first drinking from it, although Christ has offered us the superabundant water. Likewise, if one pours out his glass he must seek out the well merely to fill the glass from what he has not yet benefited from.

The thirsty can seek water and be quenched just as those who have drank may choose to thirst. For who could say that Judas did not drink of the grace of God? He ate, communed, and witnessed the Lord’s deeds. He even ate our Lord’s flesh! He chose to pass the water that had been given to him and was not quenched. Let us not be deceived. The grace we receive is real but if we choose to forgo that grace, we will justly suffer hell for it.

I tell you that Christ offers us his superabundant water through the Church which is his well. Let us seek this life giving water. Let us offer this water to others, because Christ has chosen to offer it to us in community, His Church which is His mystical body through which He works.

If the Church considers any of these as heresy, I retract them.

I had a very good discussion with a very informed solid Catholic Christian before on predestination. He said that official Catholic theology taught there was a special grace given to those who actually persevered to the end. Therefore, there is a different measure of grace or different type of grace given to those who preserver (the elect).

 

[2nd_Adam]

If somebody is predestined to eternal life, they must necessarily persevere, otherwise the implication is that God’s will ca be frustrated. On the other hand, for somebody to label themselves as predestined, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are predestined, and, if they are not, then they won’t persevere.

Thanks for your wise post. Since you are Anglican, I thought I would post the 39 Articles of Faith in regards to our discussion.

Article X

Of Free Will

The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us that we may have a good will, and working with us when we have that good will.

Article XVII

Of Predestination and Election

Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby, before the foundations of the world were laid, He hath constantly decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom He hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honour. Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God’s purpose by His Spirit working in due season; they through grace obey the calling; they be justified freely; they be made sons of God by adoption; they be made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ; they walk religiously in good works; and at length by God’s mercy they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination and our Election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: so for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the devil doth thrust them either into desperation or into wretchlessness of most unclean living no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise as they be generally set forth in Holy Scripture; and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which we have expressly declared unto us in the word of God.

 

[tmac1956]

Saint Augustine sounds Reformed and not Catholic on several important doctrines. Let’s start with this:

covenanter.org/Predestination/augustin_predestination.html

CHAP. 11 [VI.]— THAT SOME MEN ARE ELECTED IS OF GOD’S MERCY.

“Many hear the word of truth; but some believe, while others contradict. Therefore, the former will to believe; the latter do not will.” Who does not know this? Who can deny this? But since in some the will is prepared by the Lord, in others it is not prepared, we must assuredly be able to distinguish what comes from God’s mercy, and what from His judgment. “What Israel sought for,” says the apostle, “he hath not obtained, but the election hath obtained it; and the rest were blinded, as it is written, God gave to them the spirit of compunction,—eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, even to this day. And David said, Let their table be made a snare, a retribution, and a stumblingblock to them; let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see; and bow down their back always.” [Rom. 11.7.] Here is mercy and judgment,—mercy towards the election which has obtained the righteousness of God, but judgment to the rest which have been blinded. And yet the former, because they willed,12 believed; the latter, because they did not will believed not. Therefore mercy and judgment were manifested in the very wills themselves. Certainly such an election is of grace, not at all of merits. For he had before said, “So, therefore, even at this present time, the remnant has been saved by the election of grace. And if by grace, now it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace.” [Rom. 11.5.] Therefore the election obtained what it obtained gratuitously; there preceded none of those things which they might first give, and it should be given to them again. He saved them for nothing. But to the rest who were blinded, as is there plainly declared, it was done in recompense. “All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth.” [Psalm 25.10.] But His ways are unsearchable. Therefore the mercy by which He freely delivers, and the truth by which He righteously judges, are equally unsearchable.

CHAP. 12 [VII.]— WHY THE APOSTLE SAID THAT WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH AND NOT BY WORKS.

But perhaps it may be said: “The apostle distinguishes faith from works; he says, indeed, that grace is not of works, but he does not say that it is not of faith.” This, indeed, is true. But Jesus says that faith itself also is the work of God, and commands us to work it. For the Jews said to Him, “What shall we do that we may work the work of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.” [John 6.28.] The apostle, therefore, distinguishes faith from works, just as Judah is distinguished from Israel in the two kingdoms of the Hebrews, although Judah is Israel itself. And he says that a man is justified by faith and not by works, because faith itself is first given, from which may be obtained other things which are specially characterized as works, in which a man may live righteously. For he himself also says, “By grace ye are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God,” [Eph. 2.8.]—that is to say, “And in saying, ‘through faith,’ even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God’s gift.” “Not of works,” he says, “lest any man should be lifted up.” For it is often said, “He deserved to believe, because he was a good man even before he believed.” Which may be said of Cornelius, [Acts 10.] since his alms were accepted and his prayers heard before he had believed on Christ; and yet without some faith he neither gave alms nor prayed. For how did he call on Him on whom he had not believed? But if he could have been saved without the faith of Christ, the Apostle Peter would not have been sent as an architect to build him up; although, “Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain who build it.” [Psalm 127.1.] And we are told, Faith is of ourselves; other things which pertain to works of righteousness are of the Lord; as if faith did not belong to the building,—as if, I say, the foundation did not belong to the building. But if this primarily and especially belongs to it, he labours in vain who seeks to build up the faith by preaching, unless the Lord in His mercy builds it up from within. Whatever, therefore, of good works Cornelius performed, as well before he believed in Christ as when he believed and after he had believed, are all to be ascribed to God, lest, perchance any man be lifted up.

Determinists focus in on Augustine’s anti-Pelagian work pretty much ignoring most of his other writings (since they seem contradictory to them). IMO, it’s the same old philosophical position held by many Christians today – something either is or it isn’t (either/or). Based on my limited study of St. Augustine’s work, he appears to hold to the (both/and) concept. (I.e. it’s both free will and predestination)

Because of their traditional logical position, determinists must ignore or rationalize away what their philosophy forces them to view as contradictions in Augustine’s works, just like they do with scripture. However, given their either/or stance I can’t see how they handle the concept of the Trinity as they must logically believe that God is either one person or three persons (in order to be logically consistent that is). Since they would never agree to that, their position is fallacious and thus untenable in my view.

Clearly, the Augustinian position is that he is both one God and three persons.
Just my :twocents:

 

[Contarini]

If somebody is predestined to eternal life, they must necessarily persevere

Yes. But Augustine and all Augustinian Christians before Zwingli as far as I know (including Luther) thought that you could be regenerated *without *being predestined to final perseverance (and thus, as you note, without being predestined to eternal life). The link between regeneration and perseverance–and hence the link between regeneration and predestination–is a purely Reformed idea.

Edwin

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes. But Augustine and all Augustinian Christians before Zwingli as far as I know (including Luther) thought that you could be regenerated *without *being predestined to final perseverance (and thus, as you note, without being predestined to eternal life). The link between regeneration and perseverance–and hence the link between regeneration and predestination–is a purely Reformed idea.

Edwin

I guess we have to discuss John 3 and our understanding of regeneration. If regeneration occurs through water baptism, then I can see your point.

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Saint Augustine sounds Reformed and not Catholic on several important doctrines. Let’s start with this:

QUOTE]

Augustine also wrote this:

Chapter 4.— The Divine Commands Which are Most Suited to the Will Itself Illustrate Its Freedom.

What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God? Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15 and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man’s own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

2nd Adam;5697189:

Saint Augustine sounds Reformed and not Catholic on several important doctrines. Let’s start with this:

QUOTE]

And these quotes offer a more comprehensive view of his beliefs as a Catholic:

“I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so.”
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.​

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.”
The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.​

“This Church is Holy, the One Church, the True Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall not conquer her.”
Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.​

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary Councils, the authority of which is quite vital to the Church.”
Letter to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.​

“I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices not found in their writings nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves.”
Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.​

“Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19).”
Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.​

“What they found in the Church they kept; what they learned, they taught; what they received from the fathers, they handed on to the sons.”
Against Julian, 2,10,33, 421 A.D.​

“Since by Christ’s favor we are Catholic Christians:”
Letter to Vitalis, 217,5,16, 427 A.D.​

“By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the Catholic Church.”
Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.​

“Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel.”
Against Faustus, 17, 3, 400 A.D.​

“Do you claim to be strong? You will be beaten by beasts. Do you claim speed? Flies are faster. Do you claim beauty? What great beauty there is in a peafowl’s feathers. How are you better, then, than these? By the image of GOD. And where is GOD’s image? In your mind, in your intellect.”
Homilies on the Gospel of John, 3,4, 416 A.D.

 

[Contarini]

I guess we have to discuss John 3 and our understanding of regeneration. If regeneration occurs through water baptism, then I can see your point.

I think that’s the wrong starting point. Plenty of people disbelieve in baptismal regeneration without believing in the perseverance of the regenerate.

Certainly the ancient faith of the Church is that baptism (yes, that would be actual sacramental baptism involving physical water, though calling it “water baptism” is inadequate) is the normal means of regeneration. And certainly the conviction of the early Reformed that regeneration must involve a confidence in one’s own election would have worked against that traditional belief. But I am not yet sure what the cause-and-effect relationship was. It may be impossible to discern for sure.

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I think that the Reformed over-interpret this passage. It won’t bear the weight you rest on it. For one thing, it assumes a Protestant (and in my opinion probably an un-Pauline) understanding of justification in the first place. Note that the word “sanctified” does not occur here. Why? Probably because Paul, like the Catholic tradition that followed him, did not see justification and sanctification as two different things and did not see justification as necessarily instantaneous. But more to the point, the passage is saying that all of these things happen to the elect, not necessarily that if one of them happens the others must as well. It *might *mean that. But I don’t think you can legitimately claim that it must.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

Note that our own choice is never mentioned as one of the things that cannot separate us.

I have been having this debate since I was about eight years old (although back then my opponents were not thorough-going Calvinists and had a much flimsier theology). I remember making this point then (in an argument with an AWANA leader who was also a family friend), and I have yet to hear a satisfactory refutation of it.

Edwin

 

[mathematician]

Yes. But Augustine and all Augustinian Christians before Zwingli as far as I know (including Luther) thought that you could be regenerated *without *being predestined to final perseverance … The link between regeneration and perseverance–and hence the link between regeneration and predestination–is a purely Reformed idea.

Not so. Although there are few Lutherans nowadays who would align themselves with Calvin’s view of predestination, Luther himself held views which were little different from those of Calvin.

 

[mathematician]

Aquinas insists that man has free will, and because he has free will he is morally responsible for his actions. However, he alao insists that predestination is absolute, and owes nothing to anything in the predestined. Now there is a pretty obvious paradox there, but he holda free will, moral responsibility and unconditional predestination together because the Bible holds them together.

 

[buffgbob]

I realize after reading my previous post that I spoke only of grace and not really of predestination. Predestination is the foreknowledge and preparation of God for the giving of grace to men. Augustine talks about “inadequate” predestination, in which men receive grace from God yet ultimately reject it (such as Judas) as well as sufficient predestination.

The idea is that God freely chooses men toward predestination and grace. It then requires man’s cooperation with that grace. Proper foreknowledge of predestination (in terms of the elect only) refers to those who both received and cooperated with grace.

Can God’s will be frustrated? What is sin? If it is not a frustration of God’s will then it must be His will.

PS - I see that posts after mine have clarified this, but I wanted to post in order to clarify my earlier one.

 

[mathematician]

Can God’s will be frustrated? What is sin? If it is not a frustration of God’s will then it must be His will.

The short answer to that is Judas Iscariot. Was it God’s will that Jesus should be betrayed and crucified? Yes. Does that make Judas’ treachery any more excusable? No.

St Augustine

Here, if I am asked why God should not have given them perseverance to whom He gave that love by which they might live Christianly, I answer that I do not know. For I do not speak arrogantly, but with acknowledgment of my small measure, when I hear the apostle saying, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” and, “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways untraceable!” So far, therefore, as He condescends to manifest His judgments to us, let us give thanks; but so far as He thinks fit to conceal them, let us not murmur against His counsel, but believe that this also is the most wholesome for us. But whoever you are that are hostile to His grace, and thus ask, what do you yourself say? it is well that you do not deny yourself to be a Christian and boast of being a catholic. If, therefore, you confess that to persevere to the end in good is God’s gift, I think that equally with me you are ignorant why one man should receive this gift and another should not receive it; and in this case we are both unable to penetrate the unsearchable judgments of God.

On The Predestination of The Saints

Note that first sentence:
a.) Perseverence is God’s gift
b.) His reasons for bestowing or withholding that gift cannot be known by us.

It is fairly well known that St Augustine was originally opposed to the doctrine of predestination (because he says so himself), but he then changed his mind.

 

[Contarini]

Not so. Although there are few Lutherans nowadays who would align themselves with Calvin’s view of predestination, Luther himself held views which were little different from those of Calvin.

What’s this “Calvin’s view of predestination”? What about Calvin’s view of predestination was, in your opinion, different from that of previous theologians? Calvin’s theology was a combination of the ideas of early Reformed theologians (principally Bucer in my opinion, but also of course Zwingli and others) with those of Luther and (more importantly in my opinion) Melanchthon. So chronologically speaking you’re putting the cart before the horse.

That being said, I would be interested in seeing evidence showing that Luther agreed with Calvin and the Reformed generally on this *specific *point. It seems pretty clear to me that he didn’t. For instance, in the Galatians commentary (talking about 5:17: unfortunately the online version is severely abridged and doesn’t make the point clearly enough), Luther explicitly says that if people obey the flesh they will lose faith, and if they don’t repent they will die in their sins.

You are jumping from the fact that Luther and Calvin agreed on the basic doctrine of predestination and on the bondage of the will (in fact, on that latter point Calvin was arguably following Luther–Zwingli had had a much weaker doctrine of original sin) to the claim that they agreed on perseverance. But you have provided no evidence of this.

Edwin

 

[mathematician]

What’s this “Calvin’s view of predestination”? What about Calvin’s view of predestination was, in your opinion, different from that of previous theologians?

It matters little where Calvin got his ideas from, as a matter of easily verifiable fact, his position on the subject of predestination is pretty well identical to that of Aquinas. Where they differ is in their understanding of efficacious grace and its effects.

That being said, I would be interested in seeing evidence showing that Luther agreed with Calvin and the Reformed generally on this *specific *point.

contra-mundum.org/essays/mattson/Luther-predestination.pdf

 

[2nd_Adam]

I really enjoy this particular discussion. I hope everyone here would participate on this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=378179

For who did Christ die?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The short answer to that is Judas Iscariot. Was it God’s will that Jesus should be betrayed and crucified? Yes. Does that make Judas’ treachery any more excusable? No.

St Augustine

Here, if I am asked why God should not have given them perseverance to whom He gave that love by which they might live Christianly, I answer that I do not know. For I do not speak arrogantly, but with acknowledgment of my small measure, when I hear the apostle saying, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” and, “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways untraceable!” So far, therefore, as He condescends to manifest His judgments to us, let us give thanks; but so far as He thinks fit to conceal them, let us not murmur against His counsel, but believe that this also is the most wholesome for us. But whoever you are that are hostile to His grace, and thus ask, what do you yourself say? it is well that you do not deny yourself to be a Christian and boast of being a catholic. If, therefore, you confess that to persevere to the end in good is God’s gift, I think that equally with me you are ignorant why one man should receive this gift and another should not receive it; and in this case we are both unable to penetrate the unsearchable judgments of God.

On The Predestination of The Saints

Note that first sentence:
a.) Perseverence is God’s gift
b.) His reasons for bestowing or withholding that gift cannot be known by us.

It is fairly well known that St Augustine was originally opposed to the doctrine of predestination (because he says so himself), but he then changed his mind.

Molinism proposes a reasonable answer to this question.