Augustine views

  • Thread starter Thread starter billcu1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

billcu1

Guest
What does it mean that St. Augustine had a skewed idea of original sin and sexual desire. I think the Bishop can help a lot of people. We all have some kind of problem(s). How did he overcome his sexual problems? Though I am still not quite sure what they were.
 
The opinions of the fathers concerning things like Genesis I wouldn’t put a lot of credence in. Unless explained by Jesus. Otherwise I would go by certain of the Rabbi. The Nefileem being angels? Well that seems to be questionable. If they were they were. I know of some “angels” that have ceased being angels and are other forms of life that deal with us now. That’s not a Catholic interpretation no.

Bill

This is a link I have found that speaks of Augustine.

jknirp.com/aug3.htm
 
The opinions of the fathers concerning things like Genesis I wouldn’t put a lot of credence in. Unless explained by Jesus. Otherwise I would go by certain of the Rabbi. The Nefileem being angels? Well that seems to be questionable. If they were they were. I know of some “angels” that have ceased being angels and are other forms of life that deal with us now. That’s not a Catholic interpretation no.

Bill

This is a link I have found that speaks of Augustine.

jknirp.com/aug3.htm
That article was about impurity.
 
What does it mean that St. Augustine had a skewed idea of original sin and sexual desire. I think the Bishop can help a lot of people. We all have some kind of problem(s). How did he overcome his sexual problems? Though I am still not quite sure what they were.
Some say that Augustine was still influenced by the Manichean dualism he was immersed in earlier, where everything in the material world is considered to be evil. I don’t agree with this assessment.

But Augustine did believe that OS was passed down or transmitted from one generation to the next by the sex act, *due to the fact that the act of generation is always contaminated by lust in fallen man, *because concupiscence is a hallmark of Original Sin. While the Church also teaches that OS is propagated in the act of generation, she doesn’t claim to know the mechanism, or associate it with concupiscence/lust.
 
Some say that Augustine was still influenced by the Manichean dualism he was immersed in earlier, where everything in the material world is considered to be evil. I don’t agree with this assessment.

But Augustine did believe that OS was passed down or transmitted from one generation to the next by the sex act, *due to the fact that the act of generation is always contaminated by lust in fallen man, *because concupiscence is a hallmark of Original Sin. While the Church also teaches that OS is propagated in the act of generation, she doesn’t claim to know the mechanism, or associate it with concupiscence/lust.
Hum. SO basically if you have no OS because of baptism. You’re stil going to pass it on to your children?
 
Hum. SO basically if you have no OS because of baptism. You’re stil going to pass it on to your children?
Yes, it’s still passed on. God apparently has determined that each of us will experience the effects of OS.
 
Yes, it’s still passed on. God apparently has determined that each of us will experience the effects of OS.
Would that be something that God would determine? In my ignorance I would think Man was responsible for his OS. I know the Blessed Mother was saved from it.
 
Would that be something that God would determine? In my ignorance I would think Man was responsible for his OS. I know the Blessed Mother was saved from it.
Adam was responsible for the OS. And yet God would’ve made the determination that all humanity should participate, so to speak, falling as “one man”, even though none of Adam’s descendants were responsible for committing that first actual sin.
 
What does it mean that St. Augustine had a skewed idea of original sin and sexual desire. I think the Bishop can help a lot of people. We all have some kind of problem(s). How did he overcome his sexual problems? Though I am still not quite sure what they were.
Augustine has been deemed rather… problematic at different points in the history of the Church and Christianity as a whole.

We all bring our baggage before the Lord - who promptly turns us upside down.

If you read through Augustine’s Confessions, he had the equivalent of the modern University experience when he moved to Carthage - replete with a variety of amorous affairs.

To be as blunt as possible - he loved sex. Now that might seem a bit intuitive for a human being :p, but as he goes on to say in his Confessions and other writings - he loved it to the point of blocking out his connection to the divine. So this shouldn’t be interpreted as him having a normal healthy relationship - he was by his own words a slave to it… what modern psychology might classify as sexual addiction.

How he cured himself of it? Cold Turkey more or less - although the manner by which he did it (kicking out his concubine) would be heavily frowned upon by modern morality (heck even by ancient morality). He basically had to isolate himself from the temptation.

Even in his old age, he complained about still feeling the tug and urge for it.

His struggles play into his ideas about Original Sin.

Extrapolating from his own struggles, Augustine believed that Humanity before the Fall had complete control of his or her body. This is especially true over man and womans generative organs - Augustine believed that the disobedience of the body to the higher human faculties of the Mind and the Will was a punishment of the Fall.

If you dig through his City of God, he speculates that the reason why Adam/Eve fell in the first place was because of a flaw our creation. In this he’s actually elaborating on a position held by Athanasius.

God made us from Nothing. When we turn away from God, who is pure Being, we are in fact turning back toward Nothing-ness. So when via Pride we flout the Divine will and start living for ourselves against God’s will - living for oneself “is not as yet to be nothing, but to approximate nothing.”

As some of the other commentators on this thread mention, the Fall, at least in Augustine’s view, tainted human existence by enfeebling/destroying free will. Adam’s sin radically transformed Human Nature itself.

So that leaves human beings in a state of well…bad. Its only by Divine Grace, can humans have any ability to fix their situation.

The Other Church Fathers tend to look at this narrative with some skepticism.

Our Orthodox Brethren point out to the fact that many of the Church Fathers, interpret Adam’s sin as having consequences for humanity - but people do not bear the Guilt for it, that’s Adam and Eves to bear alone.

Essentially, they deny Augustine’s idea that mankind lives in a state of total depravity post-Fall. We are tarnished yes, but the situation isn’t as pessimistic as Augustine makes it out to be.

There’s also an element of wondering if Augustine is extrapolating too much from his own personal experiences to fit the condition afflicting all of mankind.
 
Augustine has been deemed rather… problematic at different points in the history of the Church and Christianity as a whole.

We all bring our baggage before the Lord - who promptly turns us upside down.

If you read through Augustine’s Confessions, he had the equivalent of the modern University experience when he moved to Carthage - replete with a variety of amorous affairs.

To be as blunt as possible - he loved sex. Now that might seem a bit intuitive for a human being :p, but as he goes on to say in his Confessions and other writings - he loved it to the point of blocking out his connection to the divine. So this shouldn’t be interpreted as him having a normal healthy relationship - he was by his own words a slave to it… what modern psychology might classify as sexual addiction.

How he cured himself of it? Cold Turkey more or less - although the manner by which he did it (kicking out his concubine) would be heavily frowned upon by modern morality (heck even by ancient morality). He basically had to isolate himself from the temptation.

Even in his old age, he complained about still feeling the tug and urge for it.

His struggles play into his ideas about Original Sin.

Extrapolating from his own struggles, Augustine believed that Humanity before the Fall had complete control of his or her body. This is especially true over man and womans generative organs - Augustine believed that the disobedience of the body to the higher human faculties of the Mind and the Will was a punishment of the Fall.

If you dig through his City of God, he speculates that the reason why Adam/Eve fell in the first place was because of a flaw our creation. In this he’s actually elaborating on a position held by Athanasius.

God made us from Nothing. When we turn away from God, who is pure Being, we are in fact turning back toward Nothing-ness. So when via Pride we flout the Divine will and start living for ourselves against God’s will - living for oneself “is not as yet to be nothing, but to approximate nothing.”

As some of the other commentators on this thread mention, the Fall, at least in Augustine’s view, tainted human existence by enfeebling/destroying free will. Adam’s sin radically transformed Human Nature itself.

So that leaves human beings in a state of well…bad. Its only by Divine Grace, can humans have any ability to fix their situation.

The Other Church Fathers tend to look at this narrative with some skepticism.

Our Orthodox Brethren point out to the fact that many of the Church Fathers, interpret Adam’s sin as having consequences for humanity - but people do not bear the Guilt for it, that’s Adam and Eves to bear alone.

Essentially, they deny Augustine’s idea that mankind lives in a state of total depravity post-Fall. We are tarnished yes, but the situation isn’t as pessimistic as Augustine makes it out to be.

There’s also an element of wondering if Augustine is extrapolating too much from his own personal experiences to fit the condition afflicting all of mankind.
I see. We are all confused. When you say “How he cured himself of it…” I myself pray into my Divine mercy Chaplet…“father if it be thy will, created in me a clean heart and mind. In the name of our Lord Jesus.”

myself I couldn’t get over something like that. Only pray for the grace to be rid of it. I have some problems with looking at pics of women, but I don’t go around having sex though. I can’t do it, that is stop this type of thing. I have to say. I can only pray for grace. Maybe some can 😉
 
The opinions of the fathers concerning things like Genesis I wouldn’t put a lot of credence in. Unless explained by Jesus. Otherwise I would go by certain of the Rabbi. The Nefileem being angels? Well that seems to be questionable. If they were they were. I know of some “angels” that have ceased being angels and are other forms of life that deal with us now. That’s not a Catholic interpretation no.

Bill

This is a link I have found that speaks of Augustine.

jknirp.com/aug3.htm
What was unbibical of what they said on Genesis?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top