Augustine vs. Pelagius

[tsering]

I want to open a new thread addressing the ancient, but still present, debate between Augustine and Pelagius.

Many protestants claim to find their roots in Augustine and that the reformation was a reaction against semi-Pelagianism in the Medieval Catholic Church.

What I want to know is what is the Catholic Church’s official stand on this issue? What about my Catholic bros and sisters?

Also, how do the Protestants that tune into this thread feel about the debate? What exactly does your Church believe?

Before we begin this discussion, I ask that posters (not posers) do some study on the debate between Augustine and Pelagius, Luther and Erasmus, Calvin and Arminius. I looked at this link (leaderu.com/theology/augpelagius.html) and found it helpful but limited, so if anyone has done some study and knows of any good resources please tell.

The goal of this discussion is to come to our roots (and our senses - or even better, our faith) and to explain this controversy in a way that not only draws us closer to God, but to each other. Because from what I understand, both Catholics and the Reformers accept Augustine’s (not Pelagius’) teaching as orthodox. Maybe that’s why Luther wasn’t a Pelagian Monk?

My personal conclusion is that it’s a mystery. A mystery does not mean that it hasn’t been revealed, but that it’s more like a paradox - a truth that combines two truths that by worldly logic don’t seem to make sense, so because of that, we have to accept it by faith (not worldly logic). I can’t deny that we have free will - but also I can’t deny that even our ability to have a free will comes from God - “For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.” Romans 11:36. If everything is of him, through him, and unto him (meaning He is omnipotent)…and yet he judges fallen angels (Satan) and the unrighteous as if they are responsible for their own actions…that doesn’t make sense to worldly logic. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I know, this debate is deep. Lets make it God glorifying and Church edifying, please.

 

[blazerdave]

I’m a huge fan and student of St. Augustine, and though it’s dangerous to ever state what Episcopalians believe , all the ones with whom I worship are very Augustinian. My brother in college met a street preacher who is a professing Pelagian (as in, the preacher quotes Pelagius and recommends him as the sole correct interpretation of Scripture). There’s a lot of “save yourselves and make yourselves perfect so that God will accept you” in Pelagius which appeals to our fleshly desires. However, the idea that we can turn the will from ourselves and towards the good (to God) apart from grace is certainly contradicted by Christ and St. Paul. Pelagius’ denial of Original Sin and of a corrupted will is harmful to the Christian message, since it deceives the hearer into thinking that he or she can do things that God must do in them and for them!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I always enjoyed reading about Augustine, too, Dave. I remember my first time reading “Confessions” in college. Couldn’t put it down. “Augustine of Hippo” by Peter Brown is a very thorough book about his life. It was required reading in college also. I was able to relate to Augustine at times, his way of looking at things.

I’m a huge fan and student of St. Augustine, and though it’s dangerous to ever state what Episcopalians believe , all the ones with whom I worship are very Augustinian. My brother in college met a street preacher who is a professing Pelagian (as in, the preacher quotes Pelagius and recommends him as the sole correct interpretation of Scripture). There’s a lot of “save yourselves and make yourselves perfect so that God will accept you” in Pelagius which appeals to our fleshly desires. However, the idea that we can turn the will from ourselves and towards the good (to God) apart from grace is certainly contradicted by Christ and St. Paul. Pelagius’ denial of Original Sin and of a corrupted will is harmful to the Christian message, since it deceives the hearer into thinking that he or she can do things that God must do in them and for them!

 

[TriuneUnity]

I want to open a new thread addressing the ancient, but still present, debate between Augustine and Pelagius.

It is still the central debate that exists in the background of any discussion of grace, justification, and free will. Luther realized this in his debate with Erasmus.

Also, how do the Protestants that tune into this thread feel about the debate? What exactly does your Church believe?

Our church is Augustinian, at least as it relates to the necessity of grace for salvation, the slavery of the human will to sin, and the necessary means of salvation being through God’s foreordained election.

We are not, however, Calvinists. Calvin went beyond Augustine in teaching double predestination and the surety of a Christian’s election.

 

[tsering]

Okay, I’ve found some helpful information and will summarize (correct me if I’m wrong):

Pelagius: Was like a Deist and believed that salvation was completely up to man’s will to do good or evil, without God’s unmerited intervention of grace. God is hands off…period. Man is not tainted at all by original sin.

Augustine: Man, within the sphere of God’s sovereignty, has a free will. Though through the fall, the sin nature has damaged, if not enslaved, his ability to choose good. God’s grace is an unmerited favor of God towards those stuck in sin which frees their will to choose good. God’s grace activates right motives within the individual so they can choose good, so even though we have a free will…it is still shaped by God’s grace and He gets all the Glory. Predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge. Not all who are predestined to experience God’s grace are guaranteed to enter heaven. God does not on the other hand predestinate to hell, but sin is a complete free choice of the individual outside of grace which makes them solely responsible for it’s consequences. (I guess that’s why it’s called sin right? Absence of light - anything contrary to the will of God - therefore it must be outside the will of God?)

That’s what I’ve gathered so far. I will now take some time to look up related Scripture passages, since obviously this is a struggle over what they say. Without even reference…Pelagius is obviously wrong…I think he forgot to read Romans.