Augustine's view on Predestination and Free will

[cathopologist]

it’s only naive from the Catholic standpoint (a group with a billion adherents who believe they are unable to comprehend the meaning of a simple medium lengthed book). For the rest of us it’s perfectly understandable that many people wouldn’t be willing to trust the interpretations of a self-interested organization concerning their deeply held beliefs.

One of my favourite quotes: Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility. — St. Augustine

 

[josie_L]

I admit for me this is mere psychologal assent with the theological views of a man I have little in common with. **Since I always doubted the existence of god, and never really had what can be termed as faith, for me this exercise holds little true value. **

You said in your previous posts that you were an alter boy (you even considered being a knight of Columbus) and that you were a devout christian, and now, you state you always doubted the existence of God and never really had what can be termed as faith. I would say humble in doubt, either you are a liar, or you are very confused as to what the meaning of the word “devout” means. I’ll let you decide which it is.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

What authority do men need to comprehend any writing beyond their own intellect?

What authority did the early Christians have? Were they not under the authority of the apostles?

But what does Scripture say?

“When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes” Matt. 7:28-29

Thus, the Jewish leaders failed to understand Christ, in part because they relied on their own interpretation of the Scriptures. They protested virtually everything Christ said and did –indeed, they might even be styled, proto-Protestants!

And authority is always necessary, since private interpretation always leads to confusion. Luther himself attests this in a letter to Christians living in Antwerp.

There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism, another denies the Sacrament, a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some that. . . . There is now no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Ghost and he himself a prophet. . . . There is no one who does not wish to be cleverer than Luther; they all want to try their steel on me. . . . They speak like madmen…

To the Christians at Antwerp (An die Christen zu Antwerpen), early in April, 1525.

Hartmann Grisar, Luther, vol. 4,p. 407.
archive.org/details/grisarsluther04grisuoft

Dr. Martin Luther’s Sämtliche Werke, Vermischte Deutsche Schriften, Johann Konrad Irmischer, Deutsche Briefe, Erste Band, Frankfurt am Main, 1853, Carl Heyder & H. Zimmer, Erlangen ed. (Drei und Fünfzigster Band, i. e, Fifty-third volume) p. 342.

books.google.com/books?id=9DcoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA341&dq=%22an+die+christen+zu+antwerpen%22&lr=#PPA342,M1

German letter also in W. M. L. De Wette, vol. 3, pp. 60-64 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Martin_Leberecht_de_Wette#Selected_works

Scripture does state that men are not saved because of their personal merit, their desires, efforts, and so on … does it not? What do you think this means? Do you think it merely stands for the proposition that god doesn’t care how bad we were, he’ll save us if we ask? Or doesn’t scripture also enumerate the concept of predestination quite clearly?

As a matter of fact, Scripture does indeed state that men are saved because of their merits and their good works of charity. But these very merits of theirs are themselves God’s gifts, God’s grace, the grace which Christ won for them at the cross.

Grace is therefore given:

a. To assist us in keeping the commandments, the doing of which is necessary to salvation. “If thou will enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt. 19:17

b. For the performance of those good works of charity and kindness, the doing of which is likewise necessary to salvation. “For, faith without works is dead.” James 2:20

But when St. Augustine speaks of “faith,” “grace” etc, we must remember that, for him, these terms have their fullest meaning only among those who have remained in the “Catholic peace,” who have not severed themselves from the bonds of unity and love. We must never imagine that Augustine’s words apply to Protestants, for they simply do not. Listen to him for yourself:

Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in The Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic . For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe.

Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church Catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same, inasmuch as it loves the neighbor, and consequently readily forgives the neighbor’s sins, because it prays that forgiveness may be extended to itself by Him who has reconciled us to Himself, doing away with all past things, and calling us to a new life. And until we reach the perfection of this new life, we cannot be without sins. Nevertheless it is a matter of consequence of what sort those sins may be.

Of Faith and the Creed, ch. 10
newadvent.org/fathers/1304.htm

Wherefore whosoever are baptized in the ***congregations or separations rather ***of schismatics or heretics, although they have not been born again of the Spirit, like as it were to Ishmael, who was Abraham’s son after the flesh; not like Isaac, who was his son after the Spirit, because by promise; yet when they come to the Catholic Church, and are joined to the fellowship of the Spirit which without the Church they beyond doubt had not, the washing of the flesh [baptism] is not repeated in their case.

For “this form of godliness” was not wanting to them even when they were without; but there is added to them “the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace,” which cannot be given but within. Before they were Catholics indeed, they were as they of whom the Apostle says, “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

Sermon 21:32 [Sermon 71:32 in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrologia_Latina”]Patrologia Latina 38, 462].

On the words of the Gospel, Matt. 12:32, *Whosoever shall speak a word against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come. *

Augustine’s Latin reads: “congregationibus vel potius segregationibus, ” “congregations, or rather segregations.”

As for predestination, Augustine would have undoubtedly said of Protestants simply this: that they were predestined to be heretics, until of course, such time as they repent and return to the “Catholic peace”.

---

Simon Peter … chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion … pushed on to Rome … and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years … he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high …

Buried at Rome in the Vatican near the triumphal way he is venerated by the whole world.

St. Jerome, On Illustrious Men

 

[humble_in_doubt]

You said in your previous posts that you were an alter boy (you even considered being a knight of Columbus) and that you were a devout christian, and now, you state you always doubted the existence of God and never really had what can be termed as faith. I would say humble in doubt, either you are a liar, or you are very confused as to what the meaning of the word “devout” means. I’ll let you decide which it is.

the thing is back then the Catholic religion was more of a … I don’t know, a club I was raised into. I was loyal because my mom is a devout Catholic, part of it had to do with being half Italian, and so on. All that being said when I was in college I found Nietzsche and Freud just as compelling as Augustine, Aquinas, or Calvin. In fact deep down I knew men like Freud were right, but I continued identifying myself as Catholic because of organizational loyalty I guess (and my ethnic stripe).

The works were always easy enough (sacraments, confession, etc.), yet the more I thought about it I knew I didn’t believe. I’m not sure if any of this makes sense … and frankly I’m probably gonna check off this site (I’m really not sure I have much more to say & quibbling about religion is getting old quick).

To raumzeitmc2:

You missed the whole point (did you even read the volumes of quotes I proved by Augustine). Someone said Augustine is often misconstrued. Indeed he’s correct, since everyone else on this thread cannot understand his very plain language.

Augustine nor Calvin ever endorsed sin. Both men acknowledged the necessity of holiness. The passages you cited are excellent evidence that indeed in the Christian religion your bible teaches good works are a witness of faith, and faith witness of election.

In other words god causes his elect to obey him, yet the elect also willingly obey. This might sound paradoxical, but it’s exactly how both Augustine and Calvin present this complicated topic (and in my view they’re simply affirming what scripture very clearly enumerates).

OK … all I really feel like saying on the matter. If you like Augustine so much go to Barnes & Nobles and pick up City of God (it’s a huge book, so it’ll take some time to read and soak in). If you want an even longer more tortuous book to read, pick up Summa Theologica (Thomas Aquinas). Recommended reading for the good Catholic.

 

[josie_L]

the thing is back then the Catholic religion was more of a … I don’t know, a club I was raised into. I was loyal because my mom is a devout Catholic, part of it had to do with being half Italian, and so on. All that being said when I was in college I found Nietzsche and Freud just as compelling as Augustine, Aquinas, or Calvin. In fact deep down I knew men like Freud were right, but I continued identifying myself as Catholic because of organizational loyalty I guess (and my ethnic stripe).

The works were always easy enough (sacraments, confession, etc.), yet the more I thought about it I knew I didn’t believe. I’m not sure if any of this makes sense … and frankly I’m probably gonna check off this site (I’m really not sure I have much more to say & quibbling about religion is getting old quick).

But you used the word “devout” not “loyal”. You made people believe you were so into your faith, “I was an alter boy,” “I studied theology for years”, “I wanted to be a knignt”, blah, blah, . . .etc.

P.S. I thought you weren’t a big fan of Nietzsche. And Freud has been completely debunked.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

To raumzeitmc2:

You missed the whole point (did you even read the volumes of quotes I proved by Augustine).

Yes I did read them.

Augustine nor Calvin ever endorsed sin.

Calvin implicitly endorsed sin by severing himself from the unity of the Church and encouraging others to do likewise. What’s more, he became a cruel persecutor, he and his many deranged followers.

Now Scripture expressly warns against false teachers and Calvin certainly qualifies, for clearly, he had no authority, no credentials, no nothing!

Some witness of election! LOL!

But now unlike Calvin, the nobody, Augustine was a legitimate Bishop, with legitimate authority:

"since I am addressing a Christian, and especially in such a case as this—that it becomes you to hearken to me as a bishop commanding with authority, my noble and justly distinguished lord and much-loved son. – Letter 133

newadvent.org/fathers/1102133.htm

In other words god causes his elect to obey him, yet the elect also willingly obey. This might sound paradoxical, but it’s exactly how both Augustine and Calvin present this complicated topic.

You keep trying to suggest a comparison between Augustine and Calvin. But if you read the following, I think you’ll recognize some fundamental differences. This is just a small sampling:

Unlike Calvin, Augustine believed in resistible grace:

“Whoever, then, refuses or resists this gift of the grace of God or is somehow apart from it up to the end of this temporal life….” 185:49, p. 206.
books.google.com/books?id=cJnjXWQpknIC&pg=PA206&dq=%22Whoever,+then,+resists+and+refuses+this+gift+of+the+grace+of+God+%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=Zf3vSaarIJbcMZ27qeQE&client=firefox#PPA206,M1

“What is the drift of my words? This: since we realize the Last Day will come – it is well for us that we know it will come, and it is also well that we do not know when – we must keep our hearts in readiness be leading a good life, so that far from fearing its advent, we may even desire it. For as that day increases the woe of the unfaithful, so it puts an end to that of the faithful. As yet, before it comes, you have the power to decide which class you will belong to; once this will be beyond you. Chose, therefore, while there is time; for what God in His mercy conceals, He in mercy delays."
----FIRST DISCOURSE ON PSALM 36 (EXPOSITION 1 OF PSALM 36). books.google.com/books?q=+%22power+to+decide+which+class%22&btnG=Search+Books

“He is going to come as a judge, let us not bear the yoke with unbelievers. He is also going to resuscitate the corpses of the dead; ***let us deserve ***this transfiguration of the body by a transformation of our minds. He is going to set the bad on his left, the good on his right; LET US CHOOSE OUR PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS.” Sermon 229D: 1 “On the Holy Day of Easter.”

“Though faith, then, obtains justification, as God has also granted to each the measure of faith itself, no human merit precedes the grace of God, but grace itself merits an increase in order that, once increased, it may also merit to be made perfect with the will accompanying, not leading, following along, not preceding.” (Letter 186:10)

‘For what could be richer or more filled with a most true profession than that passage in a letter of yours where you humbly deplored that our nature did not remain as it was created, but was damaged by the father of the human race. [for Augustine, human nature was *damaged by the fall, not totally depraved]

“Toward the middle of 416, Alypius, the bishop of Thagaste, and Augustine wrote to Paulinus, the bishop of Nola in Italy." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulinus_of_Nola

You said, "I am poor and sorrowing (Ps 69:30), since I am still fashioned from the squalor of the earthly image and still carry more of the first than of the second Adam in the senses of my flesh and in my earthly actions.44 How shall I dare to make a portrait of myself for you when I am shown to reject the image of the heavenly man by my earthly corruption?45 Shame encloses me from both sides. I am ashamed to portray what I am; I do not dare to portray what I am not. I hate what I am; I am not what I love. But what good will it do wretched me to hate iniquity and to love virtue,46 since I do rather what I hate and I do not in my laziness strive to do what I love? In my discord I am tom apart by inner warfare, while the spirit has desires opposed to the flesh and the flesh has desires opposed to the spirit (Gal 5: 17) and the law of the body attacks the law of the mind with the law of sin. 47 Unhappy man that I am, who have not eliminated the poisoned taste of the hostile tree even by the wood of the cross!48 For there remains in me that paternal poison by which through his transgression our father infected the whole of his race,"49 and the many other things that you put together concerning this misery, while groaning in expectation of the redemption of your body, IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE NOT YET SAVED IN FACT BUT IN HOPE.’ 50 (186:40)

Notes:
44. See I Cor 15:47-49.
45. Paulinus wrote this letter to Bishop Severus who had asked him to have a painting of him and
his wife sent to him.
46. See Ps 45:8; Heb 1:9.
47. See Rom 7:23.
48. See Gn 3:6.
49. Paulinus of Nola. Letter 30, 2.
50. See Rom 8:23-24.

Works of Saint Augustine, Letters 156-210, books.google.com/books?id=cJnjXWQpknIC&pg=PA228&dq=%22YOU+ARE+NOT+YET+SAVED+IN+FACT+BUT+IN+HOPE%22&ei=2gbwScvEKYmmNYTcmMEH

 

[Camron]

But you used the word “devout” not “loyal”. You made people believe you were so into your faith, “I was an alter boy,” “I studied theology for years”, “I wanted to be a knignt”, blah, blah, . . .etc.

P.S. I thought you weren’t a big fan of Nietzsche. And Freud has been completely debunked.

FWIW, I noticed the same thing josie L. I think humble_in_doubt is searching for God again, although his method for searching may not be very effective.

 

[Camron]

the unbeliever cannot voice his opinion without offending believers …

That’s incorrect. An unbeliever can most certainly voice their lack of faith without offending believers. The reverse is also true too.

 

[Camron]

I’ve only been a non-believer (or shall we say faith challenged ) for a few years now, but I’ve admired Calvin’s theology for the better part of the last 15 years (even since my first or second year in college).

So then let’s start here and break it down further.

1. What led you to become a non-believer with the last few years?
2. What was your standing with the Catholic Church during the last 15 years during which you became an admirer of Calvin’s theology?
3. Why are you an admirer of Calvin’s theology?

This will hopefully lead us back to Augustine’s view on Predestination and Free will so we can then look closely at some of your previous claims in this thread.

By the way, my cousin has been struggling with his faith in God for a while now. I can sympathize with the fact that it’s not a fun place to be too. But he’s never been the type to brandish his lack of faith around. He continues to search, hoping that he can trust God again.

It’s not that he doesn’t believe in God. He believes that God exists. But he has a very hard time trusting Him due to things that happened in his life.

 

[Camron]

It’s quite hard to tell. If you ask most Catholics they will say they believe in a universal prevenient grace, which is imputed to all people and enables all mankind to seek god. They then posit that god then tosses the ball in our court … and the reason the elect were chosen is because god merely foresaw their decision.

In other words, contrary to how Augustine frames it, Catholics (who have essentially become Arminians, albeit with some nuance) will say they chose god (and even though god chose them, it was because of their decision for god, not god’s preceding decision for them).

If there are fellow Catholics claiming this then I think they are in error. It is because of God’s grace that we are saved. He chose us. We didn’t choose Him.

See here…

Is Our Own Free-Will Over-Rated? What About God’s Will?

 

[josie_L]

FWIW, I noticed the same thing josie L. I think humble_in_doubt is searching for God again, although his method for searching may not be very effective.

Yes, that is what I think too, I believe, however, that I may have pushed too hard, and now this may be the last we hear of him (last post was directed to me in the “why does it matter who is more holy” thread). I didn’t mean to hurt him , I just couldn’t understand the inconsistencies of his “devout” faith. I guess from what he wrote, he meant the word “devout” to mean, practicing the faith outwardly and consistently.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

But you used the word “devout” not “loyal”. You made people believe you were so into your faith, “I was an alter boy,” “I studied theology for years”, “I wanted to be a knignt”, blah, blah, . . .etc.

P.S. I thought you weren’t a big fan of Nietzsche. And Freud has been completely debunked.

I swore to myself I wouldn’t post again here … but one last time (it’s become like a drug habit I need to kick).

First, not being a big fan of Nietzsche and finding him more compelling than theologians are two different things. Second, with regard to Freud, I was referring to his work: “The Future of an Illusion” (not his work in psychotherapy, of which I’m not qualified to render an opinion on).

However, I’m sure you’ll find something else to nit pick about, since that is the Catholic game isn’t it? You guys can rarely win an argument on the merits, so you inevitably (almost always) resort to ad hom attacks. It’s the same when you quibble with protestants. In the short time I’ve been here I’ve noticed a favorite Catholic pastime is to malign Luther (and less frequently Calvin) for their small handful of mishaps, while forgetting about the centuries of bloody Catholic tyranny and its list of corrupt popes.

---

Next, with regard to the Augustine question (by another poster), the idea that Augustine taught “resistible” grace is an incomplete statement wrought from a very simplistic and narrow understanding of this topic (predestination and grace).

I’ll say this again, Augustine believed BOTH that god’s grace (or his calling) is irresistible (for the elect alone); AND that man can resist some aspects of grace. He would never set the blame on god for our resisting grace, this blame is always ascribed to humanity. However, god and god alone receives credit for salvation (the entire process from its initiation).

In other words Augustine (and Calvin) would say we do have the power to decide whether or not to follow Christ. However, it is still god’s choice, and his choice alone. Scripture presents it both ways and so do Augustine and Calvin (again, this is termed compatiblism).

Moreover, predestination of the elect is not based on foreseen merit or foreseen faith. That is essentially the semi-pelagian view held by Eastern Orthodoxy (and rejected by the Council of Carthage, when Augustine was bishop & fought off the Pelagian heresy).

What I liked about Calvin (and Augustine) is they understood compatiblism is not necessarily logical, because the way scripture presents this issue is not necessarily logical (in other words there is tension between the biblical presentation of divine sovereignty and human free will). No reformed writer (whether Calvin, Beza, Spurgeon, or whomever) denied human free will.

The fact is you guys don’t see any value in anything outside of your cabal … so there’s obviously no use.

BTW, on a separate note (and to address something I read in one of your posts) I’m not confused, or angry with god (because of some mishap in life, or all the evil in the world, or all the other whimsical reasons why people walk away from your religion). I simply do not believe god exists, and I have very good reasons for it (and if I did I certainly wouldn’t be Catholic again). Anyway, if you want to waste your time responding to me … fine (it will only be to make yourselves feel better, because this will hopefully be the last time I type the URL for this forum in my web browser).

What arrogance to think the only reason why people would not believe in little flying angels and god men who cheated death is because they’re upset, angry, delusional, or whatever. It’s YOU PEOPLE who are all those things … not me.

 

[josie_L]

I swore to myself I wouldn’t post again here … but one last time (it’s become like a drug habit I need to kick).

First, not being a big fan of Nietzsche and finding him more compelling than theologians are two different things. Second, with regard to Freud, I was referring to his work: “The Future of an Illusion” (not his work in psychotherapy, of which I’m not qualified to render an opinion on).

However, I’m sure you’ll find something else to nit pick about, since that is the Catholic game isn’t it? You guys can rarely win an argument on the merits, so you inevitably (almost always) resort to ad hom attacks. It’s the same when you quibble with protestants. In the short time I’ve been here I’ve noticed a favorite Catholic pastime is to malign Luther (and less frequently Calvin) for their small handful of mishaps, while forgetting about the centuries of bloody Catholic tyranny and its list of corrupt popes.

---

Next, with regard to the Augustine question (by another poster), the idea that Augustine taught “resistible” grace is an incomplete statement wrought from a very simplistic and narrow understanding of this topic (predestination and grace).

I’ll say this again, Augustine believed BOTH that god’s grace (or his calling) is irresistible (for the elect alone); AND that man can resist some aspects of grace. He would never set the blame on god for our resisting grace, this blame is always ascribed to humanity. However, god and god alone receives credit for salvation (the entire process from its initiation).

In other words Augustine (and Calvin) would say we do have the power to decide whether or not to follow Christ. However, it is still god’s choice, and his choice alone. Scripture presents it both ways and so do Augustine and Calvin (again, this is termed compatiblism).

Moreover, predestination of the elect is not based on foreseen merit or foreseen faith. That is essentially the semi-pelagian view held by Eastern Orthodoxy (and rejected by the Council of Carthage, when Augustine was bishop & fought off the Pelagian heresy).

What I liked about Calvin (and Augustine) is they understood compatiblism is not necessarily logical, because the way scripture presents this issue is not necessarily logical (in other words there is tension between the biblical presentation of divine sovereignty and human free will). No reformed writer (whether Calvin, Beza, Spurgeon, or whomever) denied human free will.

The fact is you guys don’t see any value in anything outside of your cabal … so there’s obviously no use.

BTW, on a separate note (and to address something I read in one of your posts) I’m not confused, or angry with god (because of some mishap in life, or all the evil in the world, or all the other whimsical reasons why people walk away from your religion). I simply do not believe god exists, and I have very good reasons for it (and if I did I certainly wouldn’t be Catholic again). Anyway, if you want to waste your time responding to me … fine (it will only be to make yourselves feel better, because this will hopefully be the last time I type the URL for this forum in my web browser).

What arrogance to think the only reason why people would not believe in little flying angels and god men who cheated death is because they’re upset, angry, delusional, or whatever. It’s YOU PEOPLE who are all those things … not me.

I am sorry humble.

 

[Camron]

BTW, on a separate note (and to address something I read in one of your posts) I’m not confused, or angry with god (because of some mishap in life, or all the evil in the world, or all the other whimsical reasons why people walk away from your religion). I simply do not believe god exists, and I have very good reasons for it (and if I did I certainly wouldn’t be Catholic again). Anyway, if you want to waste your time responding to me … fine (it will only be to make yourselves feel better, because this will hopefully be the last time I type the URL for this forum in my web browser).

So then why do you believe God does not exist?

Based on the list you gave, there doesn’t appear to be many reasons left for your unbelief, aside from “I simply do not believe god exists”. That doesn’t give people much to work with.

 

[josie_L]

So then why do you believe God does not exist?

Based on the list you gave, there doesn’t appear to be many reasons left for your unbelief, aside from “I simply do not believe god exists”. That doesn’t give people much to work with.

I’m not sure he’s going to respond, I just apologized, while he was still on the thread. But he has not acknowledged it, I don’t understand why he thinks so badly of Catholics? Have we been that mean and unkind? God bless.

 

[Camron]

In other words Augustine (and Calvin) would say we do have the power to decide whether or not to follow Christ. However, it is still god’s choice, and his choice alone. Scripture presents it both ways and so do Augustine and Calvin (again, this is termed compatiblism).

This is where you fall into Calvin’s error and are misunderstanding Augustine’s thoughts.

When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

Augustine taught that if I do not save myself it is not because I am not able, but because I do not wish to be saved.

Calvin taught that if I do not save myself it is because I am not able, specifically because God does not wish me to be saved.

Teaching of St. Augustine of Hippo

 

[Camron]

I’m not sure he’s going to respond, I just apologized, while I he was still on the thread. But he has not acknowledged it, I don’t understand why he thinks so badly of Catholics? Have we been that mean and unkind? God bless.

I suppose sometimes we have to leave things to prayer. When humble_in_doubt is ready to talk about the real reasons why he left the Catholic Church he will do so. Until then, there’s really not much we can do. It’s between him and God and many prayers along the way.

 

[josie_L]

I suppose sometimes we have to leave things to prayer. When humble_in_doubt is ready to talk about the real reasons why he left the Catholic Church he will do so. Until then, there’s really not much we can do. It’s between him and God and many prayers along the way.

I am praying for him, and I’m going to miss him too! We had a pretty good conversation going on (well, I thought it was interesting) in another thread. Anyways, I do wish him peace and joy.

 

[Camron]

I am praying for him, and I’m going to miss him too! We had a pretty good conversation going on (well, I thought it was interesting) in another thread. Anyways, I do wish him peace and joy.

Well, for what it’s worth, I can say that you have been very charitable with him. I’ve been more direct trying to get to the real source of his frustration. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. Again, I think it now comes to prayer for him. But thank you for being kind to him. People like humble really need some more of that kindness I think.

 

[josie_L]

I swore to myself I wouldn’t post again here … but one last time (it’s become like a drug habit I need to kick).

First, not being a big fan of Nietzsche and finding him more compelling than theologians are two different things. Second, with regard to Freud, I was referring to his work: “The Future of an Illusion” (not his work in psychotherapy, of which I’m not qualified to render an opinion on).

However, I’m sure you’ll find something else to nit pick about, since that is the Catholic game isn’t it? You guys can rarely win an argument on the merits, so you inevitably (almost always) resort to ad hom attacks. It’s the same when you quibble with protestants. In the short time I’ve been here I’ve noticed a favorite Catholic pastime is to malign Luther (and less frequently Calvin) for their small handful of mishaps, while forgetting about the centuries of bloody Catholic tyranny and its list of corrupt popes.

No one has denied that these bad things have happened (although not always in the way initially thought) but why are you so ready to point them out (albeit you don’t care much for Christianity as a whole). Don’t you think that we has Catholics have experienced a surplus of mockery on her behalf? Don’t you think that in her errors she has at least grown humble and mature? And it may very well be that Catholics do speak of Luther a lot because, well, he happened to be a very influential character during the reformation, and since that was not a good time for Christianity (in my humble opinion) then he will be spoken of quite often, it can’t be helped. If it makes you feel better, I don’t like King Henry the XIII either (now’s your cue to smile). You know there was/is bound to be some friction on this forum between Catholics and Protestants, but in the end we are still brothers and sisters in Christ, and like real brothers and sisters we bicker. . . . alot. But you still have to love family, right? We are not all that bad, just stupidly human, like you or I can be or any one else. We learn from our mistakes. To tell you the truth I’ve grown to like other Christians much more because of CAF. God bless, humble.