Augustine's view on Predestination and Free will

[raumzeitmc2]

I’ve noticed a favorite Catholic pastime is to malign Luther (and less frequently Calvin) for their small handful of mishaps, while forgetting about the centuries of bloody Catholic tyranny and its list of corrupt popes.

“Handful”?? Pleeease!!!

Listen to Luther:

“Why should not we … attack … these Popes, Cardinals, and all the rabble of the Roman Sodom, and wash our hands in their blood.”

" et manus nostras in sanguine istorum lavamus."

Ludwig Pastor, History of the Popes, v. 7, p. 393.
books.google.com/books?id=Y1QZaRY6Q4UC&pg=PA393&dq=luther+%22wash+our+hands+in+their+blood%22&lr=

D. Martini Lutheri opera Latina varii argumenti, 1865, vol 2, p.107.
books.google.com/books?id=5tICAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA107&dq=%22et+manus+nostras+in+sanguine+istorum+lavamus%22&lr=&ei=8PDwSfqGJZj2MILJnccJ&client=firefox

And Calvin:

"[Those] who persist in the superstitions of the Roman Antichrist… deserve to be repressed by the sword…

books.google.com/books?id=tlUYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA173&dq=%22persist+in+the+superstitions+of+the+Roman+antichrist%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=uvTwSYWaD5XGM63ErbsJ

And there’s tons more…

But let’s us now examine the Calvinist police state…!

*Ordinances for the Supervision of Churches in the Country, February 3, 1547.
*

*Ordinances for the Supervision of the Churches dependent on the Seigneury of Geneva, which is advised be put in force, subject to the complete discretion of their Lordships. *

SERMONS

I. Everyone … is to come on Sundays, unless it be necessary … to take care of children or animals, under penalty of 3 sous.

1. Everyone is to be present at Sermon when the prayer is begun, under penalty as above, unless he absent himself for legitimate reason.

PENALTIES

I. Those who fail in their duty of coming are to be admonished by the Guardians…

1. If after intimation they continue to default, they are to be fined three groats, for each time…
2. If anyone come after Sermon has begun, he is to be admonished, and if after this is done he does not amend, for each fault he is to be fined three sous…
3. If during Sermon anyone make any disturbance…he is to be reported to their Lordships to be punished appropriately.

BY WHOM FINES ARE TO BE EXACTED

I. The local lord, in conjunction with the Ministers and the Guardians, is to oblige the delinquents to pay the fines they have incurred… Legitimate excuses are to be admitted, but this is to be done without any formal procedure.

1. If there be any so rebellious that, despite the above fines, they do not at all amend, they are to be reported to the Consistory with advice to the effect that their Lordships punish them according to the seriousness of their obstinacy.

OF BAPTISM

1. As to names … be careful both to avoid all superstition and idolatry and to remove from the Church of God everything foolish and indecent.
2. If midwives usurp the office of Baptism, they are to be reproved or chastised according to the measure of fault found … under penalty of being put on bread and water for three days and fined ten sous…

ON THE SUPPER

I. No one is to be received at the Supper unless…

1. Those who wish to receive the Supper are to come at the beginning of the Service; those who come at the end are not to be received.
2. All are to remain until the end, unless there be a legitimate excuse which is recognized as above.

OF TIMES OF MEETING AT CHURCH

Buildings are to remain shut for the rest of the time, in order that no one outside the hours may enter for superstitious reasons. If anyone be found making any particular devotion inside or nearby, he is to be admonished: if it appear to be a superstition which he will not amend, he is to be chastised.

FAULTS CONTRAVENING THE REFORMATION BESIDES THOSE ALREADY MENTIONED

First, Superstitions.

I. Those who have blasphemed … ought to do reverence for the first time; for the second a penalty of five sous; for the third ten sous; and for the last time put in the pillory for an hour.

1. Anyone who abjures or renounces God or his Baptism is for the first time to be put for ten days on bread and water; for the second time his is to be punished with some more rigorous corporal punishment, at the discretion of the Lordships.

CONTRADICTION OF THE WORD

I. … any who contradict the Word of God, let them brought before the Consistory to be admonished, or … receive chastisement according to the needs of the case.

1. If the contradiction or rebellion amount to scandal …

DRUNKENNESS

I. There is to be no treating of one another to drinks, under the penalty of three sous.

1. The taverns are to be close during Service, under penalty that the taverner pay three sous and anyone entering them the same.
2. There are to be no carousals, under the penalty of ten souls.

SONGS AND DANCES

In anyone sings songs that are unworthily, dissolute or outrageous, or spin wildly round in the dance, or the like, he is to be imprisoned for three days, and then sent to the Consistory.

Etc……

Calvin: Theological Treatises, J. K. S. Reid, 1954, Westminster John Knox Press, ISBN 0664223672 ISBN-13: 978-0664223670, pp. 77-81.
books.google.com/books?id=bJEYXOnn6OgC&pg=PA81&dq=%22If+anyone+sing+songs+that+are+unworthy,+dissolute+or+outrageous,+or+spin+wildly+round+%22&lr=#PPA81,M1

See also:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4154976&postcount=40

 

[humble_in_doubt]

gotta love Luther … I always appreciate a person with passion, even if based on an ancient fairy tale. IMO Luther was a great man, to spite his many, many faults. I know you might think you’ll surprise me with some factoid about Luther, but you won’t (I’m sure I’ve studied him far more in depth than you have). He was sort of crazy … but all revolutionaries are sort of crazy (especially in the eyes of those they’re rebelling against).

But anyway … urrrr, if only the Templars were still around to deal with the likes of me (too bad you guys killed them off huh?)

 

[raumzeitmc2]

gotta love Luther … I always appreciate a person with passion, even if based on an ancient fairy tale. IMO Luther was a great man, to spite his many, many faults. I know you might think you’ll surprise me with some factoid about Luther, but you won’t (I’m sure I’ve studied him far more in depth than you have). He was sort of crazy … but all revolutionaries are sort of crazy (especially in the eyes of those they’re rebelling against).

Crazy? Hmmm… Maybe.

Or, could be, the o’l “ale-pope” just wrote most of his offensive stuff after staggering home nights from his usual haunt - the Black Eagle tavern in Wittenberg! LOL!!

books.google.com/books?lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&q=luther+%22black+eagle%22+%22ale-pope%22&btnG=Search+Books

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Crazy? Hmmm… Maybe.

Or, could be, the o’l “ale-pope” just wrote most of his offensive stuff after staggering home nights from his usual haunt - the Black Eagle tavern in Wittenberg! LOL!!

books.google.com/books?lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&q=luther+%22black+eagle%22+%22ale-pope%22&btnG=Search+Books

he was a Catholic priest after all (and many priests I’ve know … and I’ve known quite a few in my life, like to hit the bottle or beer can as it were, if you know I mean). Hey, they’re only human right

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of Luther’s dumber remarks were made while on the sauce

However, the fact remains that when sober he was a brilliant theologian (it’s even rumored that the Vatican considered offering him a post as bishop until they learned he married, so don’t fool yourself into thinking the church viewed his theology as terrible, they knew he was right in perhaps most areas he wrote about … when he was sober that is).

 

[asker42]

You’ve probably already expounded upon this but why exactly do you no longer have faith?

 

[benidict]

You’ve probably already expounded upon this but why exactly do you no longer have faith?

I did the same thing when I was new here. My dear friend asker. look under his name. he cannot answer, he is no longer among us…LOL! welcome to the forums my friend.

 

[onedaringjew]

raumzeitmc2 said:
"
[God’s] special grace that leads to actual salvation He freely and gratuitously bestows only on the elect who remain free to collaborate with grace and who alone are actually saved. As to the reason of this discrimination in God’s gifts to men, this is a mystery not known to men."

Let me see if I follow. Your argument seems to be:

Only those who collaborate with God are saved. These (who collaborate) are the ones whom God elects. It’s a mystery why God doesn’t elect those who don’t collaborate with Him in their salvation.

My question is, why do you think it a mystery that God does not save those who refuse to collaborate with Him, that is, those who refuse to come to Him?

Surely, in this “collaborative” (synergistic, Arminian) view of salvation there is no mystery why God elects some to salvation while he passes others by, for, if you choose to come (other conditions may also apply in the Catholic view), you will be saved/elected; if you choose not to come, you will not be saved/elected.

 

[WarriorAngel]

When Augustine says ‘we were predestined’ he refers only to Christians [the Church] per allegory of the Church from the inception of prophets.

St Augustine is not talking about individuals, but refers to ‘us’ as the Church being he was but a Bishop.

If he is read carefully enough, this will be evident in his writings.