Augustinian Amillennialists: please answer these questions

[spauline]

I spoke with one very orthodox priest about the OT pattern of salvation history, one of alternating evil then good, that is,

…fall down, get up, fall down, get up, etc.,

…or darkness, light, darkness, light, darkness, light, etc,…

like the days of creation: evening came, morning followed, evening came, morning folllowed, etc…

or like the beast in the NT apoc, symbol of the fallen nature:
beast head is healed, then wounded, then healed, then wounded, etc… that is, fallen nature asserts itself, fallen nature wounded by redemption, fallen nature asserts itself again, it is wounded again by a stage of redemption, etc…

That is, following the major OT history:

Darkness: The Fall and Pre-Flood Corruption
Light: The Flood and Covenant with Noah

Darkness: Tower of Babel
Light: Confounding of Languages and Covenant with Abraham

Darkness: Egyptian Enslavement
Light: The Exodus and Kingdom Israel

Darkness: The Jewish falling away from the OT Cov
Light: Babylonian Exile, Jewish Repentance and Restoration to OT Cov

Darkness: OT Antichrist Antiochus, Maccabbees
Light: First Coming of Christ.

So when I shared this OT history with the priest, he said perhaps this is how the OT went, but he asserted that Christ has INTERRUPTED this pattern, and seemed to imply that Augustine’s rule now applies, the rule of the wheat and the tares: no longer, then, does Salvation history follow the pattern of great darkness followed by great light, but rather, Church history is now a field mixed with good and evil that gradually matures toward a final confrontation at the end of the world.

I don’t understand this: did Christ alter the tendencies of the fallen nature? Were not grace and truth revealed in the OT? Were not men saved by grace in the OT period, like they are today? How, therefore, does Christ interrupt the pattern of the fallen nature? It seems to me that Christ has not done anything to change the tendencies of the fallen nature, neither in the individual, nor in history. For if man’s tendency relative to the grace and truth offered in the OT was to repeated fall and be redeemed in alternating succession, like the sun setting and risiing repeatedly, what is different in the NT? Does not human nature still bear the same nature, to tend toward falling and being raised up?

How is it then that the pattern does not continue?

I say it does, in the big picture, especially if the mystics are correct.

For here is the NT history so far:

Darkness: Pagan Rome persecutes (like Egypt did to Jews)
Light: Catholic Christendom (the Church was delivered from paganism and given a kingdom, Christendom, as the Jews were delivered from Egypt and given a kingdom)

Darkness: 1500 - present, the Gentile’s progressive falling away from NT Cov: Protestantism, Enlightenment, Secular Apostasy

So, so far in NT history, it has been the same thing: darkness, then light, then darkness.

But here is Augustinians problem: for Augustinians, the secular apostasy of today is not going to be healed, and represents the maturation of evil, so that the gray areas will be eliminated, and the world will only be mostly devout Catholics and full apostates, and then the world will end.

But if this is the scenario, then the total number of darknesses is merely seven: (there were five darknesses above, and only two in the age of the Church–pagan Rome and the Great Apostasy). Which means the seventh light is the New Creation and eternal rest.

But in theology, there are EIGHT days of creation, and not merely seven, for the seventh day sabbath is the OLD Sabbath, and resurrection doesn’t occur until the EIGHTH day, the true Sabbath that the Church celebrates.

So Augustinianism basically does at least one of the following:
it eliminates day eight, or else says that day six and day seven are the same.

but if the mystics are right, there is no need to do this, because the next light for the mystics is not the second coming and general resurrection, but rather the minor tribulation and restoration of Christian unity and the Catholic Gospel, the age of peace, so that the seventh day IS a rest in this old creation, and then comes the darkness of the eighth day,the great apostasy, followed by the Second Coming and New Creation.

Why does Augustine, therefore, try to eliminate common sense?

In our days of the week, days six, seven, and eight are all different. Similarly, in a key in music, notes six, seven, and eight are all distinct: note six is different from not seven, which is different from note eight, note eight being the first note, just as day eight in the week is also day one?

For notes one, six and seven are all mutually distinct and exclusive.

So Augustinianism doesn’t make sense.

Here is another problem with Augustinian pessimism: Christians are divided, causing loss of faith, but their reunion doesn’t RESTORE faith. that is too negative. If Christians becoming divided causes an apostasy, shouldn’t their reunion restore faith? Isn’t that what Jesus’ prayer in John 17 implies?

Also, if the Jews fell away after they were delivered from Egypt, were chastised and then restored to love of God, why not the Gentiles? The Church was delivered from paganism, and the Gentiles entered the Kingdom of the Church. Today is their first major falling away, so why shouldn’t they be able to be restored after a spanking, like the Jews were?

For if the Gentiles are now approaching incurable apostasy, wouldn’t this mean the NT Cov is WORSE than the OT Cov, seeing as the Jews could be restored, but the Gentiles not?

If any Augustinian Amillennnialists could answer these questions, I would appreciate it.

thanks, guys!

 

[Ed_Rand]

Was Augustine himself an amillenialist? Since he sort of laid the foundation of how the days of creation mirror the “days” of salvation history, I would think that he would understand that we await a day of rest and then a new beginning on the “eighth day”. Did he equate the day of rest with eternity? Your explanation of salvation history seems so sound that I can’t imagine how he could think differently. Surely he had to notice that there is yet another falling away after the day of rest.

Also, the “field of wheat and weeds” analogy still stands if we accept your analysis as well. A farmer does not simply sow and reap. Since it is not yet harvest time, as you say, then what we await is a weeding, a watering, replanting, grafting, etc. Basically, there is some major work to be done in God’s garden. He’s provided all the tools. It may be that too many workers have gone to sleep and so the garden has been neglected. So it seems that maybe all God has left to provide are the alarm bells.

 

[spauline]

Was Augustine himself an amillenialist? Since he sort of laid the foundation of how the days of creation mirror the “days” of salvation history, I would think that he would understand that we await a day of rest and then a new beginning on the “eighth day”. Did he equate the day of rest with eternity? Your explanation of salvation history seems so sound that I can’t imagine how he could think differently. Surely he had to notice that there is yet another falling away after the day of rest.

Also, the “field of wheat and weeds” analogy still stands if we accept your analysis as well. A farmer does not simply sow and reap. Since it is not yet harvest time, as you say, then what we await is a weeding, a watering, replanting, grafting, etc. Basically, there is some major work to be done in God’s garden. He’s provided all the tools. It may be that too many workers have gone to sleep and so the garden has been neglected. So it seems that maybe all God has left to provide are the alarm bells.

yes, good points, Augustine’s FIRST solution to the Millennium was to ascribe a day of rest for the Church, as long as the rest was understood to be from spiritual benefits, and not a materialistic utopia. It is his second solution that was to ascribe the Millennium to the amillennialist position, which makes it more or less the WHOLE Church age, and not merely the day of rest toward the very end.

I agree also, we cannot negate the parable of the wheat and the tares, for it is Scripture and the very words of Christ.

I would say that it’s meaning can be seen a little differently: first, to recognize that there will scumbags in Christ’s Church, and not merely the righteous, and also that seasons come and pass by the particular judgement: for constantly weeds and wheat are dying and passing into the judgement that is the particular judgement, even before the final judgement at the end of time.

IOW, the field goes through several intermediate harvests, or seasons.

I hope I’m not stretching Scripture!

Thanks for the comments, Ed, and for keeping me on my toes.

scott

 

[ryanoneil]

How, therefore, does Christ interrupt the pattern of the fallen nature? It seems to me that Christ has not done anything to change the tendencies of the fallen nature, neither in the individual, nor in history.

Baptism for starters!

But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

For if man’s tendency relative to the grace and truth offered in the OT was to repeated fall and be redeemed in alternating succession, like the sun setting and risiing repeatedly, what is different in the NT?

I agree man is still encumbered by the proclivity to commit sin, and often succumbs to sin, (even after baptism) but repeated falling and redemption shouldn’t be considered the norm. There are countless examples in the NT warning against this pattern.

This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others. Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile. After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned. (Titus 3:8-11)

Does not human nature still bear the same nature, to tend toward falling and being raised up?

Yes, but human nature is only one part of the equation. We shouldn’t underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

Consequently, from now on we regard no one according to the flesh; even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him so no longer. So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come (2 Cor 5:16-17)

Don’t get me wrong Scott. I understand what you are saying about the pattern of falling and being redeemed, but this section of your post is confusing. I get the impression you think this pattern is inevitable. You and I both believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and the sacraments.

IOW, the field goes through several intermediate harvests, or seasons.

I hope I’m not stretching Scripture!

I know you don’t want to hear this but you are absolutely correct. The wheat and weeds does not only apply to the General Judgment at the end of history (Mat 13:39-43). He initially fortells the judgment of Old Covenant Israel. This involves the first close of an age (A.D. 70)

When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Mat 10:23

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28)

Now think of the fields of wheat and weeds in modern day India and China. The Son of Man’s kingdom is growing there right along side fundementalism and atheism. This has to happen until the gospel is spread throughout the entire world.

the rule of the wheat and the tares: no longer, then, does Salvation history follow the pattern of great darkness followed by great light, but rather, Church history is now a field mixed with good and evil that gradually matures toward a final confrontation at the end of the world.

I don’t understand why you think the wheat and the tares negates the pattern of darkness followed by light. The field is far from being fully grown yet. There is a **minor tribulation **everyday Christ’s people are being slaughtered to grow the kingdom of God. Look everywhere in the world where Christianinty is a minority (as it was in the first days of the Church). These martyr’s deaths are no different than the first Christians. You’re talking about the “restoration of Christian unity” and Christ’s field’s are still growing. Christ is unifying His kingdom everyday.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:25)

Christ’s growing field IS part of the restoration.

**While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. (Dan 2:34-35)

In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44)**

It is still happening my friend. All over the world. The major message of the parable of wheat and weeds is that God’s forbearance toward sin and evil in the world will last only until the Last Judgment; in the meantime, saints and sinners will continue side by side in the Church and the larger kingdom.

I’m not say God’s plan doesn’t include big things like you say, but He is not waiting for something big to unify and restore His kingdom.