Augustinism and Pelagianism

[simpleas]

The sin is adultery or whatever name describes sex outside marriage. Since there are many reasons a divorced person can validly remarry, the priest has to be positive of the couple’s situation.

Actually, all the Church is doing is holding to the truth that one should not receive Communion unworthily, that is, in the state of Mortal Sin. A divorced person, who is in the State of Sanctifying Grace, should receive Our Lord as many times as possible.

I am not sure if Father Guinan still teaches. However, he is still in the news for his writings and teachings against basic Divine Revelation regarding human origin and Original Sin. He is one of many priests, who no longer accept some fundamental Catholic doctrines.

I am now very curious about the position of Father Richard Rohr regarding Original Sin.

As a young student, I probably questioned a lot of teachings. Fortunately, Catholic doctrines were presented in a straight forward manner and as I look back, the doctrines flowed logically from basic truths like God is the Creator and we are the creatures. A high school class examined the early Church Councils and the Reformation from a doctrinal base, that is, we learned both the reasoning for a doctrine and against a doctrine. While a lot of that information is in the dark recesses of my memory bank, methods used in discerning what is true and what is not remained.

The one Catholic doctrine which was troubling so that I ignored it for almost all my life is the doctrine that our own human nature is an unique unification of both the spiritual world and the material world. When I landed on CAF, I was nailed big time for my misconception of human nature. I knew about Adam’s spiritual and material nature but could not correctly explain mine. A retired professor, a shade more stubborn than I am, overcame my mental block and now I can read CCC, 364-366 in amazement at God’s love for we creatures.

Regarding the comment: “I just didn’t know there was so many rules before I came on CAF.” When I learned “rules” we learned them as part of our love for God and our desire to be with Him in joy eternal. However, as I look at CAF posts, I think of the “rules” as being truths regarding pre-Fall and post-Fall Adam. For example, there would be a rule explaining why Adam was freely responsible for Original Sin. Perhaps CCC, 1730 can be viewed as that rule. ??
If I am off base about “rules”, let me know.

One other thing, I do think the rules about attending Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday and rules regarding marriage, etc., are for our benefit because they flow from how we express our union with God and what we need to do morally.

People can get divorced for many reasons other than adultery.

I’m seeing alot of modern ways of believing or not in O.S. I’ve seen many of Fr Rohr’s youtube video’s, the way he was teaching was very refreshing to me. I’m not yet sure of his opinion on O.S.
I know he doesn’t use the word sin, but rather replaces sin with addiction.

I’ll never be able to explain why God gives us a fallen soul at the time of our conception.

Not sure about 1730. Adam already knew his creator, we on the other hand have to seek him.

Your post # 127
I was thinking on what you say about believing in O.S to be necessary for the divinity of Christ and I thought about the sacrifice of the mass. We don’t ever refer to Adam in the mass, just our own sins. I would think this was because we are celebrating Christ as our savior and so no other name should be mentioned apart from Our Lady and the saints, but if we believe in the fall, why do we not meditate on the reason of the fall within the mass?
O,S is the reason for our fallen nature, but we have the means to self control etc.
Its like now we have Christ we don’t need to believe what went before us in a way, if it was so important it should be reflected on more, so people understand the fall.

I am searching to find what the church believed before Augustine’s doctrine on O.S, I have trouble believing one man’s theory of what happened to everyones soul after the fall.
I don’t know if it’s true that some things were altered along the way to suit leaders and popes along the way to enhance their powers politically, that worries me some.

 

[grannymh]

Your post # 127
I was thinking on what you say about believing in O.S to be necessary for the divinity of Christ and I thought about the sacrifice of the mass. We don’t ever refer to Adam in the mass, just our own sins. I would think this was because we are celebrating Christ as our savior and so no other name should be mentioned apart from Our Lady and the saints, but if we believe in the fall, why do we not meditate on the reason of the fall within the mass?

In answer to the question "… but if we believe in the fall, why do we not meditate on the reason of the fall within the mass?

The Fall is mentioned during the most important prayer in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There are four versions of this Eucharistic Prayer.

Eucharistic Prayer IV. towards the beginning. The man mentioned is Adam as he is described in Genesis, chapters 1-3.
We give You praise, Father most holy, for You are great and You have fashioned all Your works in wisdom and in love. You formed man in Your own image and entrusted the whole world to his care, so that in serving You alone, the Creator, he might have dominion over all creatures.

And when through disobedience he had lost Your friendship, You did not abandon him to the domain of death. For You came in mercy to the aid of all, so that those who seek might find You. Time and again You offered them covenants and through the prophets taught them to look forward to salvation.

And You so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time You sent Your only Begotten Son to be our Savior. Made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, He shared our human nature in all things but sin.

 

[simpleas]

In answer to the question "… but if we believe in the fall, why do we not meditate on the reason of the fall within the mass?

The Fall is mentioned during the most important prayer in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There are four versions of this Eucharistic Prayer.

Eucharistic Prayer IV. towards the beginning. The man mentioned is Adam as he is described in Genesis, chapters 1-3.
We give You praise, Father most holy, for You are great and You have fashioned all Your works in wisdom and in love. You formed man in Your own image and entrusted the whole world to his care, so that in serving You alone, the Creator, he might have dominion over all creatures.

And when through disobedience he had lost Your friendship, You did not abandon him to the domain of death. For You came in mercy to the aid of all, so that those who seek might find You. Time and again You offered them covenants and through the prophets taught them to look forward to salvation.

And You so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time You sent Your only Begotten Son to be our Savior. Made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, He shared our human nature in all things but sin.

Thanks for that, I didn’t realise we could get the Eucharistic Prayers online…(wait, what am I living in the dark ages or something? of course, everything is online!!)

I must say, I recognise E.P I, II, and III, so much so I could say them off by heart, well nearly! But EP IV not so much. I’m sure its been recited at mass, but its not one I hear regular.

 

[simpleas]

For anyone who might be interested in this subject I came across this :

leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9811/articles/oakes.html