Aunt Insinuating My Father will be Damned

[AbideWithMe]

Question is, do you take “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his Blood, you have no life within you” literally?

What does the Church say?

What does the Catholic Church say?

If it’s taken literally, would that mean that all people who do not receive a Catholic or Orthodox Eucharist have no life, and indeed no eternal life (as the rest of the passage is about eternal life)? If “yes”, then wouldn’t Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus need to be interpreted strictly?

 

[Peter_J]

My last post may have been a bit too quick, so I’ll try to say something more thoughtful. Penny, your response seems to me a weak evasion. It was you, not the Church, who posted the following:

You know, if you look at risk management, he definitely is in the red zone.

Do you know the scripture, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his Blood, you have no life within you”. As Catholics, we understand the Jesus indeed gave us his very flesh and blood in the Eucharist and what can we say about Catholics who leave the Church? Their risk management is in the red zone.

What do we say to Lutherans that say “Jesus didn’t mean that”. Jesus lost many disciples over this very thing, because it was a ‘hard saying’. They understood what he meant, and couldn’t believe it. Jesus didn’t run after them and say, “Wait! You misunderstood what I meant”, because they did understand what he meant. “My flesh is food indeed, and my blood drink indeed”. What can we say about anyone who “knows the Bible”, yet doesn’t do everything they can to ‘have life within them’ and Christ Himself set up for us, for all ages? They are in the red zone of risk management.

I don’t know where your family members will be at the end of their life, or what my situation will be at the end of mine. Pray and offer sacrifices to God that those people, who are approaching their last day on this earth and are about to come before the Judgement Seat of God, reach to God and have sorrow for their sins. May God pour out His mercy on them, and on us as well. The road is narrow and not many find it, and it’s sobering to think of it. God bless.

 

[Peter_J]

What does the Catholic Church say?

** If it’s taken literally**, would that mean that all people who do not receive a Catholic or Orthodox Eucharist have no life, and indeed no eternal life (as the rest of the passage is about eternal life)?

I highlighted the key portion of this question. I don’t believe that Christ literally meant that everyone who does not receive the Eucharist will go to hell. Even pre-VCII Catholics didn’t take that verse literally, If I’m not mistaken.

 

[Cricket2]

I have another thought concerning this post.

I have come to the conclusion that all should be very wary of anyone who is insinuating or declaring that any other person will be damned. How would we know? Only God knows the whole truth of a person’s life and heart, and thus He and He alone can determine this.

I certainly believe that there must be belief, the desire to believe in God, true regret for sins and repentance. But who can truly tell how much the other person does believe, how repentant they truly are and how much forgiveness they have asked and God will provide?

Thus, when anyone starts preaching too much damnation potential concerning another person I suggest giving the “preacher” a closer look to see what they may be accountable for. Focus on your own journey and how that journey can bring others to Christ, not on how you can determine another person’s guilty or culpability in the eyes of God. (That is what this aunt should do.) Basically, give her no mind at all.

 

[benjohnson]

I highlighted the key portion of this question. I don’t believe that Christ literally meant that everyone who does not receive the Eucharist will go to hell. Even pre-VCII Catholics didn’t take that verse literally, If I’m not mistaken.

You can take it literally and still hold out potential salvation - that despite not having Christ’s life within, Christ still judges the heart.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I highlighted the key portion of this question. I don’t believe that Christ literally meant that everyone who does not receive the Eucharist will go to hell. Even pre-VCII Catholics didn’t take that verse literally, If I’m not mistaken.

I don’t want this to turn into a big thread derailment (just a small one ), and I’m not being a smart aleck, but exactly which part of the passage isn’t to be taken literally in Catholic belief?

“Truly, truly, I say to you…”—certainly He was in earnest here, whatever He had in mind; that part has to be taken “as written”, so to speak. As Catholics, the “eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood…” has to be taken literally.

 

[AbideWithMe]

You can take it literally and still hold out potential salvation - that despite not having Christ’s life within, Christ still judges the heart.

Ben, again, I’m not being a smart aleck, but He says “…you have no life within you”, not “…you don’t have My life within you”.

 

[TF2Medic93]

I have met many people of many faiths, including ministers, pastors, and priests. They all agree no person has the knowledge and authoity to claim some one is, and or is to be damned. So do not worry.

 

[Hockeygurl]

Who gave these Protestant ministers any authority to pronounce damnation on people who choose not to follow them? Maybe your dad considers himself his own pastor in his own church. There is no objective standard of authority in nearly all branches of Protestantism.

This upset me Very MUCH!!. My Hubby is Catholic and I was brought up LCMS… We sent our 3 girls to catholic schools up to the 8th grade and both loved it. The ONE thing that upset me was when my 7th grader came home crying because her prayer partner (a second grader) and also the child of 2 moms was accosted by the priest and was told that her moms were going to hell… My Daughter witnessed it and she still will not go into that church because she is afraid of the priest…( you don’t do that to a CHILD and it’s not her fault)

What gives him the right to condemn anyone? It happens everywhere … I believe the RCC says that no MAN can damn anyone … only GOD. Maybe there is different standards of authority in the RCC if everyone can run around condemning people.

Sorry,

 

[Peter_J]

This upset me Very MUCH!!. My Hubby is Catholic and I was brought up LCMS… We sent our 3 girls to catholic schools up to the 8th grade and both loved it. The ONE thing that upset me was when my 7th grader came home crying because her prayer partner (a second grader) and also the child of 2 moms was accosted by the priest and was told that her moms were going to hell… My Daughter witnessed it and she still will not go into that church because she is afraid of the priest…( you don’t do that to a CHILD and it’s not her fault)

What gives him the right to condemn anyone? It happens everywhere … I believe the RCC says that no MAN can damn anyone … only GOD. Maybe there is different standards of authority in the RCC if everyone can run around condemning people.

Sorry,

It’s always difficult to be sure without having been there, but from what you said it sounds very much like the priest was exploiting Catholicism as an excuse for verbally abusing a child.

At the same time, it should be understood that the wrongness of his actions don’t in any way invalidate the Catholic teaching on homosexuality.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

This upset me Very MUCH!!. My Hubby is Catholic and I was brought up LCMS… We sent our 3 girls to catholic schools up to the 8th grade and both loved it. The ONE thing that upset me was when my 7th grader came home crying because her prayer partner (a second grader) and also the child of 2 moms was accosted by the priest and was told that her moms were going to hell… My Daughter witnessed it and she still will not go into that church because she is afraid of the priest…( you don’t do that to a CHILD and it’s not her fault)

What gives him the right to condemn anyone? It happens everywhere … I believe the RCC says that no MAN can damn anyone … only GOD. Maybe there is different standards of authority in the RCC if everyone can run around condemning people.

Sorry,

Please do not cry. You will make me cry too

What I meant was that Catholic ministers have an objective standard of authority, their holy orders from an apostolic succession and a history going back to the beginning of Christianity. The vast majority of Protestant ministers don’t have anything like this. So while the Catholic Church maybe has grounds for calling itself the one, true Church, there are no grounds for a Protestant minister to make the same claims.

When I was in college before I became a Christian, my Protestant friends invited me to come with them to their Presbyterian church, and I attended on a fairly regular basis. However, one day in the college Sunday school class, the teacher asked us if we thought you had to attend church to be a Christian (the answer he was going for being yes). Of course, he meant a “Reformed,” “Bible-believing” church. He also talked about the necessity of obedience to church authorities. This bothered me greatly because I saw that there was no objective standard by which anyone in this church–not the sunday school teacher nor the pastor–could set themselves above anyone else in the church community. If a Protestant minister is going to tell me that I have to submit to him and go to his church and believe whatever he teaches, of course I am going to take exception to it. If such a man is going to call hinself a Christian teacher, he cannot do without hypocrisy unless he approaches with total humility.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben, again, I’m not being a smart aleck, but He says “…you have no life within you”, not “…you don’t have My life within you”.

I agree! I actually think we should take this verse much more seriously than we do at times - we really should understand that the Sacrement replaces the old-Adam in us. Our Baptism really does drown out and kill our old self - and we really are not alive until then. *

However (and thankfully), God does seem to give hope to the unbaptized baby, the clean-living pagan, and even the thief on the cross. It’s just that we can’t fathom the entirety of Him and His way and as such, we should follow his word in the face of not fulling understanding.

• [In Lutheran circles we use the quip of “You don’t eat before you’re alive” to counter the silly notion that the unbaptized should be able to receive communion. ]

 

[Hockeygurl]

Thanks for not getting offended at my response. IMO we have people (individuals) in every church who overstep authority. I guess my point was that maybe one shouldn’t be accusing other “pastors” of overstepping theirs when there are plenty of people including the clergy who overstep the authority given them in the RCC too.

 

[Cricket2]

This upset me Very MUCH!!. My Hubby is Catholic and I was brought up LCMS… We sent our 3 girls to catholic schools up to the 8th grade and both loved it. The ONE thing that upset me was when my 7th grader came home crying because her prayer partner (a second grader) and also the child of 2 moms was accosted by the priest and was told that her moms were going to hell… My Daughter witnessed it and she still will not go into that church because she is afraid of the priest…( you don’t do that to a CHILD and it’s not her fault)

What gives him the right to condemn anyone? It happens everywhere … I believe the RCC says that no MAN can damn anyone … only GOD. Maybe there is different standards of authority in the RCC if everyone can run around condemning people.

Sorry,

You are right. This is an awful thing to do to a child, or anyone for that matter. That priest is out of line, way out of line.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t want this to turn into a big thread derailment (just a small one ), and I’m not being a smart aleck, but exactly which part of the passage isn’t to be taken literally in Catholic belief?

“Truly, truly, I say to you…”—certainly He was in earnest here, whatever He had in mind; that part has to be taken “as written”, so to speak. As Catholics, the “eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood…” has to be taken literally.

I’m reluctant to try to p(name removed by moderator)oint which part exactly (excepting of course if I see a Church statement that does so) but Catholics can at least say that Christ did not mean that everyone who does not receive communion is going to hell.

 

[skigirl1689]

You know, if you look at risk management, he definitely is in the red zone.

Do you know the scripture, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his Blood, you have no life within you”. As Catholics, we understand the Jesus indeed gave us his very flesh and blood in the Eucharist and what can we say about Catholics who leave the Church? Their risk management is in the red zone.

What do we say to Lutherans that say “Jesus didn’t mean that”. Jesus lost many disciples over this very thing, because it was a ‘hard saying’. They understood what he meant, and couldn’t believe it. Jesus didn’t run after them and say, “Wait! You misunderstood what I meant”, because they did understand what he meant. “My flesh is food indeed, and my blood drink indeed”. What can we say about anyone who “knows the Bible”, yet doesn’t do everything they can to ‘have life within them’ and Christ Himself set up for us, for all ages? They are in the red zone of risk management.

I don’t know where your family members will be at the end of their life, or what my situation will be at the end of mine. Pray and offer sacrifices to God that those people, who are approaching their last day on this earth and are about to come before the Judgement Seat of God, reach to God and have sorrow for their sins. May God pour out His mercy on them, and on us as well. The road is narrow and not many find it, and it’s sobering to think of it. God bless.

According to the RCC. What about all those outside of the RCC…most of the Christians I know are not RC. Oh, and traditional Lutherans believe in the True Presence but Catholics don’t recognize as it legit, which I am also painfully aware of.

Thanks for asking:

Because there is but One true God; that OTG can and DOES have only one set of faith beliefs and founded, following OT tradition of One Chosen people; only One Church [Eph 4:4-8]

The problem common to all Protestant denominations is they usurp God’s exclusive Authority by demanding God effect salvation the way THEY want it or determine it to be.
God does not work like that.

It was Divine perfection that choose to found only One New Faith in One New Church. When there is JUST ONE option; it has to be the correct one. So Christ wisely gave ALL of the Keys [things needed] to ONLY and directly too St Peter and the Catholic Church. so everyone COULD know the truth and where to find it.

Salvation outside the church is conditionally possible to those “who NO fault of there own do not know of christ and His One true church.” CCC 780, 845, 847, & 1260 fully express this truth.

Not practicing ones faith is the same as denying its truth and need.

Your Aunt is not living in this example true Christian Charity. BUT going to Mass is one of the Commandments. Serious stuff to disobey.

Pray much my friend!
Patrick

The aunt in question is Lutheran too, so I don’t think she wants him to go to Mass…that’s another issue altogether: the prejudice against Catholics, which half of the family is, though some in name only.

This upset me Very MUCH!!. My Hubby is Catholic and I was brought up LCMS… We sent our 3 girls to catholic schools up to the 8th grade and both loved it. The ONE thing that upset me was when my 7th grader came home crying because her prayer partner (a second grader) and also the child of 2 moms was accosted by the priest and was told that her moms were going to hell… My Daughter witnessed it and she still will not go into that church because she is afraid of the priest…( you don’t do that to a CHILD and it’s not her fault)

What gives him the right to condemn anyone? It happens everywhere … I believe the RCC says that no MAN can damn anyone … only GOD. Maybe there is different standards of authority in the RCC if everyone can run around condemning people.

Sorry,

I am so sorry this happened to your daughter’s friend. I have had similar issues growing up and it stinks. I even dealt with it in college and actually talked to a priest friend and religious sister about it. At least they were very accepting of my faith and background.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I agree! I actually think we should take this verse much more seriously than we do at times - we really should understand that the Sacrement replaces the old-Adam in us. Our Baptism really does drown out and kill our old self - and we really are not alive until then. *

However (and thankfully), God does seem to give hope to the unbaptized baby, the clean-living pagan, and even the thief on the cross. It’s just that we can’t fathom the entirety of Him and His way and as such, we should follow his word in the face of not fulling understanding.

• [In Lutheran circles we use the quip of “You don’t eat before you’re alive” to counter the silly notion that the unbaptized should be able to receive communion. ]

I’m reluctant to try to p(name removed by moderator)oint which part exactly (excepting of course if I see a Church statement that does so) but Catholics can at least say that Christ did not mean that everyone who does not receive communion is going to hell.

Thanks for your responses, Ben and Peter.

 

[rinnie]

I honestly don’t know if this would be better posted in another forum but it is family-centered but thought it might be more appropriate here seeing I am not Catholic. Yes and I am aware of Catholic theology but I don’t think that’s the issue as you will probably see.

My mom raised us Lutheran, and my dad doesn’t attend church but his was raised Catholic…I do not know the entire story but I know he believes in Christ and knows the Scriptures better than most people I know. The pastor we had growing up thought my dad was horrible for not going to church, even though my dad’s not Lutheran, and basically told my sister and I when we were 13/14 that our parents’ marriage was a mistake (they were married in the Lutheran church my mom attended as a child). Right or wrong in the eyes of the RCC, I don’t think it’s ever appropriate to put that onto the consciences of the children.

Anyways, the next pastor and our newest pastor have been very kind to my dad and don’t make any of us feel guilty about my dad’s choices.

But after 25 years of my parents being married my aunt (my mom’s sister) very recently insinuated my dad will be damned because he doesn’t attend church and take the Sacrament of Holy Communion in the Lutheran Church.

I’m really hurt by this, even though I know only God truly sees what my dad believes. I think it got brought up because my cousin is keeping her son’s father from knowing he exists because he does not attend church, among other reasons (I know, sounds like the lovely situation it is), and my aunt related that to my dad’s choices.

I guess I am just looking for some support or just a chance to get this off of my shoulders.

God Bless!

I can only speak for true Catholic’s who know their faith. You will never hear a Catholic dam anyone to hell.

It is Christ and Christ only who will judge you, and no one knows the mind of God.

 

[Taurks]

Most importantly, we never substitute ourselves for God in judging someones soul!

I agree. According to Abbot Damascene, when we do this, we are basically taking God’s place, because he alone is Judge, and saying “I have no need of You.”