"Authentic God experience."

[AlanFromWichita]

I have an excerpt from a writing from a spiritual director. Not everyone likes him, and I want to discuss the excerpt and not the man, so here is the quote:

Authentic God experience gives you another place to stand, another
identity, a spacious and gracious place which invites you to stand
outside of the dominant consciousness that surrounds you and that
everybody accepts as “reality.”

Authentic God experience liberates you from the usual domination
systems, liberates you from needing everything to be perfect or right,
and liberates you to be who you really are—ordinary and poor—just
like everybody else.

I think that when we give up trying to think everything through ourselves, then can God come in and speak to us. I think He speaks in whispers so if you’re busy focusing on someone else it makes it hard to hear.

Alan

 

[ethereality]

What do you want to talk about? It’s good to have a question you want someone to respond to … Do you want us to just tell you whethre we agree or disagree, and why? (See, there’s me phrasing a talking point on your behalf.)

I don’t know anything about Richard Rohr (according to a Google search of some of your text there), but why do people dislike him?

As for the quotation, sounds somewhat shaky, as if God might not be calling us to be perfect (as Jesus demands of us) – i.e., it sounds like Protestant “feel-good” theology along the vein of “God has no suffering in mind for you”, which plainly disagrees with reality.

 

[Student09]

I have read and understood Kant and I have to be honest that I have no idea what that quote is talking about. Sorry. The language seems intentionally obscure, using vague undefined terms - unless he defined them elsewhere.

Like, what is “authentic God experience”?

And isn’t the reality of God’s grace - whether or not we feel it - what enables us to … well, do those things the quote mentions … whatever they are … assuming they are good things - as opposed to some “experience”?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

First, I didn’t want to bring up Rohr’s name, because he says things that are critical of the church and he holds views that I’m pretty sure would surprise or probably even offend certain segments of the posters. So I’d rather not anyone think I’m bringing controversy; I think if we look just at this one quote it can afford interesting discussion.

I don’t think it’s intentionally obscure, but I have read other stuff by this guy so I’m guessing it goes like this:

By authentic God experience, I assume he’s talking about an experience of Divine Union, which is something that contemplatives and mystics seek.

I think the first paragraph tells us that in order to give our hearts and minds and experience that is going to be transformative – one that can heal and renew and revise our way of thinking – then we have to do something to get out of any mindset that we’ve ever had before and allow ourselves to be taken by circumstance or revelation or whatever through experiences that cause us to see things in a whole new way – one that God would have us cast our eyes upon. As long as we’re clinging to our previous beliefs to evaluate things, we will never have a truly revolutionary way of looking at it, so it is hard for God to work miracles in us.

The second paragraph says, I think, that we can quit looking for satisfaction from the world. Jesus said He gave us His peace, not as the world gives. Well, the world gives us material bribes and threats, so the best it can do for peace is to offer maybe a stream to sit by and get away from it all, or maybe give money or other support to people in need.

So I think Jesus means that the world’s peace is temporary and conditional, but His peace is everlasting and unconditional.

But first we have to believe we have received this gift. If we can cease from judging, that will be a big step toward being miserable at circumstances. If you focus on what you should do to handle any given situation in a way that’s compatible with God’s will, and let go of emotional bondage such as regrets of the past, fear of the future, and judgment of the present. if you say, “this weather is awful,” then you have judged the weather for just doing what God designed it to do. The weather didn’t make you miserable, your judgment of the weather did.

Also, I think our need to unite with each other and God is a gift from God. Our need to be right and to be told we are right, are food for the ego. To have unity we must get rid of our desire to change the thoughts of other men simply by insisting they do so or trying to convince them against their wishes.

Once we don’t have to have our egos stroked to find peace and happiness, then we can quit becoming miserable when we are misunderstood by others. If people don’t understand what you are saying, you’re in good company. After 2000 years most people still don’t have a real clue what Jesus was saying. Unless we are more persuasive than Jesus, we should not expect any better rate of conversion.

It is God’s job to call others to Him. We are welcome to use our human knowledge to try to invite others to God, but God has to call and they have to respond, or your just going: :banghead:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I guess one question is whether anyone here has had an experience that might be divine union. If you don’t want to say, I understand, but if you do I don’t think it’s boasting on your own behalf, because all sorts of people have experiences of divine union – not necessarily “holy” people.

Also I’m interested in hearing what sort of strategies there are to seek Divine Union.

One way, for example, is to practice contemplative prayer forms like Lectio Divina. Here you get your “false self” out of the way, thus allowing the Word to penetrate beyond your thoughts and biases, and come into you and do what It wills.

I’ve heard one preacher say, “God is a gentleman. He doesn’t go where He’s not invited.” He knocks, but if you don’t open the door, He won’t break it down. He just goes somewhere else and knocks, and hopefully comes back to us at a later time.

So what can we do to mortify ourselves, get past our imperfect beliefs, and allow the Perfect to have direct access to our minds and hearts?

Sometimes I think when we utterly fail at something in our lives, that’s when we are humbled to the point where God has something to work with. The part about ordinary and poor, means that we don’t see ourselves as anything special, just a humble soul inviting God over for dinner.

Alan

 

[Gertabelle]

Regarding the quote in the OP, it occurred to me like some New Age touchy-feely talk, quite honestly. “Authentic God experience”? Seriously? What is that supposed to mean? The phrase would fit perfectly in some book like Conversations with God.

Also I’m interested in hearing what sort of strategies there are to seek Divine Union.

Personally, when looking for reading material to help me grow closer to God, I stick with the tried and true sources. I figure it’ll take me the better part of the rest of my life to work through the doctors of the Church – then I’ll start looking to more contemporary writers in the Church.

Read the Autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila. If you can’t read it in the original Spanish, get a good translation. I recently purchased a copy of some works by St. John of the Cross, only to discover when I opened the book that it was a recent translation in which “diabalo” (devil) was transalted “fractured self.”

St. Teresa goes into great length about how to pray, the necessity for prayer, and the levels of prayer. If you don’t want to read her entire life, check out the table of contents, in which the contents of each chapter are listed. I think the chapters on the types and levels of prayer occur around chapter 10 and later (but I’m making that up because I don’t have the book in front of me).

Incidentally, while we can seek Divine Union, St. Teresa points out that it is not something that can be earned. It is a pure gift from God. Prayer opens our hearts to this union, and prepares us for it – but it is God that allows it in His time, not ours. Even the Carmelite nuns and friars who practice hours of mental prayer daily don’t experience Divine Union. The “dark night of the soul” is also a stage of prayer

Gertie

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Incidentally, while we can seek Divine Union, St. Teresa points out that it is not something that can be earned. It is a pure gift from God. Prayer opens our hearts to this union, and prepares us for it – but it is God that allows it in His time, not ours. Even the Carmelite nuns and friars who practice hours of mental prayer daily don’t experience Divine Union. The “dark night of the soul” is also a stage of prayer

Agreed. Through various practices, we can “invite” contemplation but whether and in what form we get it is up to God to give us or not, at His will.

I like to call forms such as the last stage in Lectio, “contemplative prayer forms” instead of “contemplative prayer,” because I think the second way makes it too easy to get the wrong impression.

Alan

 

[SedesDomi]

I guess one question is whether anyone here has had an experience that might be divine union. If you don’t want to say, I understand, but if you do I don’t think it’s boasting on your own behalf, because all sorts of people have experiences of divine union – not necessarily “holy” people.

Also I’m interested in hearing what sort of strategies there are to seek Divine Union.

I wouldn’t call it a “strategy”, but what I’ve found helpful is to spend time in “good company”, amongst living saints.

 

[Student09]

Also I’m interested in hearing what sort of strategies there are to seek Divine Union.

I don’t think there are strategies. I think a huge mistake that human beings make in trying to get closer to God is looking for a strategy. Are there strategies for finding a spouse? Well, maybe - but do you really want a relationship with someone who sees you as a strategic goal?

I think that people who attain to a high degree of union with God in this life - like St. John of the Cross, or Teresa of Avila - are not seeking Divine Union. They are seeking God. This seems to me to be a great difference which should not be overlooked.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I don’t think there are strategies. I think a huge mistake that human beings make in trying to get closer to God is looking for a strategy. Are there strategies for finding a spouse? Well, maybe - but do you really want a relationship with someone who sees you as a strategic goal?

I think that people who attain to a high degree of union with God in this life - like St. John of the Cross, or Teresa of Avila - are not seeking Divine Union. They are seeking God. This seems to me to be a great difference which should not be overlooked.

You bring up a good point. I have to be careful when I use the term “strategy” because it could sound like we think we can come up with a plan to exact graces from God by taking them or trying to earn them, rather than accept them as gifts when and if He gives them to us on His time.

What I had in mind by “strategy” was more strategies of how to get yourself and your imperfect thought processes and other obstacles out of the way (like mortification of self) so that if God does want to bless us, we have unlocked the door for Him and moved our junk out of the entry hallway – ready for Him to come in at any time He chooses.

Alan

 

[Student09]

You bring up a good point. I have to be careful when I use the term “strategy” because it could sound like we think we can come up with a plan to exact graces from God by taking them or trying to earn them, rather than accept them as gifts when and if He gives them to us on His time.

What I had in mind by “strategy” was more strategies of how to get yourself and your imperfect thought processes and other obstacles out of the way (like mortification of self) so that if God does want to bless us, we have unlocked the door for Him and moved our junk out of the entry hallway – ready for Him to come in at any time He chooses.

Alan

I understand. Have you read “The Interior Castle” by Teresa of Avila? That’s the closest thing to what you are describing that I have come across. It’s a very good book. I should reread it myself. Another is “The Ascent of Mount Carmel.”

I’m afraid I have a lot of junk to move out of the hallway.

 

[fhansen]

I understand. Have you read “The Interior Castle” by Teresa of Avila? That’s the closest thing to what you are describing that I have come across. It’s a very good book. I should reread it myself. Another is “The Ascent of Mount Carmel.”

I’m afraid I have a lot of junk to move out of the hallway.

“Authentic God Experience” sounds pretty bogus-like a contrived “experience”. With contemplative prayer a person may seek God, but, if an experience is to be had, God does the orchestrating-there’s no “me” involved in the occurrence. Other than that the OP sounded like some nice positive thinking type stuff-better than glass-half-full thinking, I suppose.

 

[fhansen]

I have an excerpt from a writing from a spiritual director. Not everyone likes him, and I want to discuss the excerpt and not the man, so here is the quote:

I think that when we give up trying to think everything through ourselves, then can God come in and speak to us. I think He speaks in whispers so if you’re busy focusing on someone else it makes it hard to hear.

Alan

“Authentic God Experience” sounds pretty bogus-like a contrived “experience”. With contemplative prayer a person may seek God, but, if a mystical experience is to be had, God does the orchestrating-there’s no “me” involved in the occurrence. Other than that the OP sounded like some nice positive thinking type stuff-better than glass-half-full thinking, I suppose.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

“Authentic God Experience” sounds pretty bogus-like a contrived “experience”. With contemplative prayer a person may seek God, but, if a mystical experience is to be had, God does the orchestrating-there’s no “me” involved in the occurrence. Other than that the OP sounded like some nice positive thinking type stuff-better than glass-half-full thinking, I suppose.

Would you prefer “Divine Union?” How about “the gift of contemplation?”

You are right that contemplation is a gift that we invite Him to give us though contemplative prayer forms. Contemplation is on His schedule. It’s up to us to make the time for Him when He deems is the right time.

As far as what I say about contemplative prayer, I’ll defer to CCC. The section on contemplative prayer starts at paragraph 2709. Here are a couple highlights:

CCC:

2709
What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oración mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

2710
The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty and in faith.

2724
Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

Alan

 

[fhansen]

Would you prefer “Divine Union?” How about “the gift of contemplation?”

You are right that contemplation is a gift that we invite Him to give us though contemplative prayer forms. Contemplation is on His schedule. It’s up to us to make the time for Him when He deems is the right time.

As far as what I say about contemplative prayer, I’ll defer to CCC. The section on contemplative prayer starts at paragraph 2709. Here are a couple highlights:

Alan

Sorry, Rohrs’ description just didn’t sound so “authentic” to me. But either way, thank you for the Catechism quotes. I read them more attentively than I have in the past and they were quite helpful-especially 2710.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Sorry, Rohrs’ description just didn’t sound so “authentic” to me. But either way, thank you for the Catechism quotes. I read them more attentively than I have in the past and they were quite helpful-especially 2710.

I can understand. His style of word usage takes some getting used to even if you know what he’s talking about.

Maybe that gives you some insight as to why I’m adamant that this discussion doesn’t turn to Rohr. He says things that people here would be very disturbed to hear him say. I’ll say these things about him, because I feel I am used to his vocabulary and gotten past that. If anybody looks him up, you’re on your own; I don’t want it to come into this thread. I want these words out of context to be the entire discussion. If anybody goes there against my warning and is offended, they are on their own. After this, if the topic of any post becomes Rohr, I will consider that post off-topic.

I’m glad you liked 2710:

I think it’s all good. Pick anything from that anywhere in that section section and I like it.

I can’t tell you whether I’ve ever experienced divine union or even received contemplation. I do not claim to be able to separate my thoughts, feelings, and imagination from the whispered word of God through the Holy Spirit.

All I can say is this: contemplative prayer forms and many hours of guidance from those who lead me in them, such as Lectio Divina, have opened up my mind and heart to the extent that I believe God gave me thorough, convincing healing. I has a severe psychosis, and believe me I thought and said and did things that the strongest of us would have a hard time hearing about. Most of the time I was having those experiences, I felt like I was very sensitive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the things I was doing was for His good.

The first time I received a speck of sanity – the month before I was involuntarily locked up which was quite damaging to me (the lockup was damaging, made the psychosis worse)
was when I met an SD in the first meeting in July, 2001. Since then I have received showers of healing and emotional and mental renewal, to the extent that I’m happier and more lucid than I was when I was a little overachieving nerd kid. I am completely disabled, and the illness was expected to be problematic for the rest of my life. I believe I have received healing through whatever I’ve been guided through this last 10 years, and now I am celebrating and shouting out that I’ve been healed. I give the Lord credit. I did work and strive for healing, but it coiuldn’t have come through ordinary means humanly available given psychological state of the art treatment. I don’t want to discuss the mental illness because then they’d have to close the thread. I only bring it up as a testimony to how much I believe the Lord can love us.

Like Rich Mullins said, “God loves me. I know that. That doesn’t make me special, it just shows God has poor taste.”

Alan

 

[fhansen]

I can understand. His style of word usage takes some getting used to even if you know what he’s talking about.

Maybe that gives you some insight as to why I’m adamant that this discussion doesn’t turn to Rohr. He says things that people here would be very disturbed to hear him say. I’ll say these things about him, because I feel I am used to his vocabulary and gotten past that. If anybody looks him up, you’re on your own; I don’t want it to come into this thread. I want these words out of context to be the entire discussion. If anybody goes there against my warning and is offended, they are on their own. After this, if the topic of any post becomes Rohr, I will consider that post off-topic.

I’m glad you liked 2710:

I think it’s all good. Pick anything from that anywhere in that section section and I like it.

I can’t tell you whether I’ve ever experienced divine union or even received contemplation. I do not claim to be able to separate my thoughts, feelings, and imagination from the whispered word of God through the Holy Spirit.

All I can say is this: contemplative prayer forms and many hours of guidance from those who lead me in them, such as Lectio Divina, have opened up my mind and heart to the extent that I believe God gave me thorough, convincing healing. I has a severe psychosis, and believe me I thought and said and did things that the strongest of us would have a hard time hearing about. Most of the time I was having those experiences, I felt like I was very sensitive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the things I was doing was for His good.

The first time I received a speck of sanity – the month before I was involuntarily locked up which was quite damaging to me (the lockup was damaging, made the psychosis worse)
was when I met an SD in the first meeting in July, 2001. Since then I have received showers of healing and emotional and mental renewal, to the extent that I’m happier and more lucid than I was when I was a little overachieving nerd kid. I am completely disabled, and the illness was expected to be problematic for the rest of my life. I believe I have received healing through whatever I’ve been guided through this last 10 years, and now I am celebrating and shouting out that I’ve been healed. I give the Lord credit. I did work and strive for healing, but it coiuldn’t have come through ordinary means humanly available given psychological state of the art treatment. I don’t want to discuss the mental illness because then they’d have to close the thread. I only bring it up as a testimony to how much I believe the Lord can love us.

Like Rich Mullins said, “God loves me. I know that. That doesn’t make me special, it just shows God has poor taste.”

Alan

That’s a great testimony, Alan. I won’t argue with success.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

That’s a great testimony, Alan. I won’t argue with success.

In the field of psychiatry, I believe this to be the difference between a human expert and the Divine Therapist, aka the Holy Spirit.

Humans can help control you, one way or another. They can give you drugs to hopefully alter your mood or maybe help you get sleep when your illness has kept you awake three days in a row. They can console you, help you try to adjust your way of looking at things. They cannot heal the mind, though, because they don’t know how. If you get too rowdy they can give you tranquilizers and sedatives, and in certain conditions they can lock you up, and when they decide to do that you have fewer rights than an accused criminal. But at least you’re not hurting anybody directly because you are locked away from loved ones. That’s the “help” the world can offer. It cannot heal, but it can help us cope and prevent collateral damage.

My doctor says he looks at psychiatric medicine like a cast on a broken leg. The cast doesn’t fix the leg, but it helps hold things in place so that the leg has a chance to heal on its own.

With Divine Healing, the problem is not masked or controlled. The problem is eliminated.

So it’s a good strategy to receive treatment from doctors, so that you might not scare or harm yourself or others by your strangeness. Also if you do scare somebody, they will take solace in hearing, for example, “oh I just changed my medicine this morning.” They don’t understand about truly out of control emotions and thoughts, but they understand taking a pill.

Meanwhile, seek the things of the kingdom of God, and then leave it in His hands. That’s what I did, and I might say I came along rather stubbornly, kicking and screaming all the way. Nevertheless, God saw fit to see me through this far.

It isn’t a “God experience” in that I felt like God was talking to me audibly or hugging me or anything like that.

The Holy Spirit is like the wind. You can’t see it or grasp it, but you can see its effects. I cannot tell you that I even know when the Spirit is talking to me. I do know this. I was seriously sick, and now I’m healed. Completely and convincingly.

I still take my medicine, though, even though as my love for the Lord grows, I am hopeful to receive even more healing and renewal. In my faith I now know that whatever oddball or troubling path we’re on, God is there for us. We have to learn to invite, He has to will to come in – and my belief is that an honest cry for Him will never be ignored.

Alan