Authentic Male Leadership

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That was not the post you responded to, but even in such a scenario it is still possible for it to be the wifes duty to refuse to move. It depends on how moving will effect the family.
My goodness you are picking nits. I have read most of the thread including THIS POST by hurting which is what I DID respond to initially. My response was, “Yes.”

We are not going to agree on this point. I believe that if the husband has shown himself to be trustworthy in leadership of the family, and after all considerations, she cannot say that he is doing it for anything but love of the family, the wife has a duty to honor him by moving. Pretty much, the end.
 
Perhaps a hypothetical would illustrate…

Say a loving, married authetically Catholic couple are presented with an opportunity to move the family across the country to allow the husband to pursue career advancement. The couple has debated the matter, prayed and consulted trusted advisors but find themselves at an impasse - he wants to go but she does not. Assume that the husband has never shown himself to be incapable of leading his household at the Church expects of him (in his imperfect human state).

A decision has to be made, and yes, not going is a decision. Is the wife not called to submit and follow her husband?
Yes to both.
 
If a decision needs to be made, and both the husband and wife disagree, then I would say that neither makes the final decision. Both need to come to an agreement. Stay strong women.
 
And I just want to make it clear that I absolutely agree that the husband has a position of authority that the wife doesn’t in marriage. But it is neither one sided nor universal. And if the husband ever starts to feel entitled to obedience from his wife he has lost his way and begun to look at the marital relationship in a way contrary to the Catholic understanding of the marital relationship.
Your statements appear contradictory. If only the husband has a position of authority, how can it not be one sided? He either has it or he doesn’t. If he does, then it would mean nothing if he cannot expect his wife to obey him.
 
Your statements appear contradictory. If only the husband has a position of authority, how can it not be one sided? He either has it or he doesn’t. If he does, then it would mean nothing if he cannot expect his wife to obey him.
How can you not say that of any authority at all, then, too–that is that either it is absolute and one-sided subjugation or else it means nothing because absolute unquestioning obedience cannot be expected once the “leader” had checked some boxes in a perfunctory manner? 🤷
 
I don’t understand your answer. My arguments mean no such thing. Women hold authority in the Church–abbesses, and even the chancellor of our archdiocese–and that is not a man-made organization. No, my point is that being in a position of subordination does not make someone a dominated second-class citizen. That is the secular talk of willful people who hate the idea that someone else has authority that they didn’t personally have the power to give or take away, IMHO, and I hate the way it is creeping into the Church. (Present company excluded–I do not mean to accuse you or those debating here of any such thing, but talk about my frustration with the “to be under authority is to be dominated” talk that is so prevalent in the US these days!)

Re-read my posts; I most clearly did not put the husband in the position of a king, but as a head among servants, and a head bound to treat everyone in the household not as he would, but as God would have the house run. He is bound to lead as Christ dictated, which is in clear contrast to the way the leaders of the secular world “make their importance felt.” He is also bound to treat his wife as his equal helpmate, and to take her opinions fully into account as to how the decisions are to be made. He is in no sense whatsoever the king of the house. If that is the model, where the husband is a king beholden to no one, then that is a perversion of marriage.

Under the headship of Christ, mutual submission and the authority of the husband in the home are not at cross-purposes. They are a full description which are only paradoxical if decision-making is seen in a secular way. For heaven’s sake, St. Paul put those two concepts side-by-side in Ephesians for a reason!! The two go together, and one does not stand without the other. He laid it all out very carefully.

Honestly, this conversation has been like listening to two sides argue about whether light is a wave or a particle. There is no contradiction, and experimental evidence shows that this is true.
Let’s not bring heaven into this. We are two very human persons.

Let me make myself very clear.
A man is not Christ (Please do not bring priests into this).
We are asked to follow Christ, both men and women.
Domination is domination, subordination is subordination, there is no whitewashing it. It has no place in a marriage.
 
Yes. It is not his job to subject her to him, but to be the point-man in submitting the household to Christ.

If it does not please you to serve the LORD, decide today whom you will serve,
the gods your fathers served beyond the River
or the gods of the Amorites in whose country you are dwelling.
As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
Josh 24:15


The authority of the husband in a marriage, being modeled after the authority of Christ himself over the Church, is entirely and without any exception given in order to achieve submission of all to the will of God. That is all, no authority that comes from God is given for any reason other than that, and nothing may be added to it. The moment it becomes self-serving, it is not of God, and there is no hand of God in any authority seized for any other ends. The husband who forgets that ought to remember the words of the Lord to Pilate, and amend himself. Jesus submitted himself to Pilate, but Pilate was culpable for misusing his authority. (And it could be argued without unfairness that the husband who takes authority within a promise to love and honor and then turns that on his wife to achieve her subjugation is not without resemblance to Judas…this is an authority to be held within the fear of God!)

*So Pilate said to him, “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?” Jesus answered (him), “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” *John 19:10-11
It should also be the wife’s job to have her whole family to follow Christ/submit to God.
 
Your statements appear contradictory. If only the husband has a position of authority, how can it not be one sided? He either has it or he doesn’t. If he does, then it would mean nothing if he cannot expect his wife to obey him.
He has a special role of authority, but that does not mean he automatically gets the last say or automatically gets to get his preferences over his wife’s. And as I said before, the moment he feels entitled to have the last say his understanding of the marital relationship is in conflict with the Catholic viewpoint of it. I feel like the problem is that you use the word authority to mean something very specific and so you automatically exclude any set-up that is not one-sided and universal as fitting with the idea of having authority. I disagree that authority can only be used to refer to such a specific meaning, and so what we end up disagreeing on is what the definition of “authority” is. 🤷
 
Let’s not bring heaven into this. We are two very human persons.

Let me make myself very clear.
A man is not Christ (Please do not bring priests into this).
We are asked to follow Christ, both men and women.
Domination is domination, subordination is subordination, there is no whitewashing it. It has no place in a marriage.
Let’s not bring heaven into this? Are you for real? If that is your condition, then perhaps that is why this concept is beyond your understanding! It cannot possibly be understood without it!

It is the letter of Ephesians that draws the comparison between Christ and the Church and a husband and wife, not me. If you don’t like that, I don’t know what to do for you. How do you follow Christ, “who did not deem equality with God something to be grasped”, and yet reject a position of submission? If you cannot submit yourself, you cannot be a Christian. Honestly, with your view of authority, I don’t know how you can maintain a belief in the Trinity. Really!
 
Let’s not bring heaven into this? Are you for real? If that is your condition, then perhaps that is why this concept is beyond your understanding! It cannot possibly be understood without it!

It is the letter of Ephesians that draws the comparison between Christ and the Church and a husband and wife, not me. If you don’t like that, I don’t know what to do for you. How do you follow Christ, “who did not deem equality with God something to be grasped”, and yet reject a position of submission? If you cannot submit yourself, you cannot be a Christian. Honestly, with your view of authority, I don’t know how you can maintain a belief in the Trinity. Really!
I was responding to your “for heavens sake”, you obviously have no sense of humour and you can give but not take. Now you make personal comments about me!!! I feel sorry for those who cannot have an amiable discusson. We must agee with everything said or we don’t know about our religion? Shame on you.

Read what Blessed JPII said about that.
 
I was responding to your “for heavens sake”, you obviously have no sense of humour and you can give but not take. Now you make personal comments about me!!! I feel sorry for those who cannot have an amiable discusson. We must agee with everything said or we don’t know about our religion? Shame on you.

Read what Blessed JPII said about that.
I’m supposed to take “Let’s not bring heaven into this. We are two very human persons” as a tongue-in-cheek throw-away line? Why would I take that as a joke? Do you not think there are Catholics who don’t think heaven has to be dragged in at all to explain this? The fact that they don’t is exactly the problem! It is why there are marriages where no one is willing to submit to anybody and why there are marriages where one party feels free to act like a petty tyrant who knows that the best thing for everybody is for everybody to dance in order to please him. (And do not for one minute think that males are the only ones who try to pull that one.)

You keep talking about a relationship where one party in submission to the other as if it is impossible that this is not one-sided. You said, in fact: “I know you are trying to justify and sanatise one -sided submission but however you put it, it is about domination.”

OK, fine. Now, without backpedalling, explain the Trinity. While you’re at it, explain Ephesians 5 without explaining it away as a some cultural encrustation that doesn’t apply to modern marriage. You tell us what it means.
 
I’m supposed to take “Let’s not bring heaven into this. We are two very human persons” as a tongue-in-cheek throw-away line? Why would I take that as a joke? Do you not think there are Catholics who don’t think heaven has to be dragged in at all to explain this? The fact that they don’t is exactly the problem! It is why there are marriages where no one is willing to submit to anybody and why there are marriages where one party feels free to act like a petty tyrant who knows that the best thing for everybody is for everybody to dance in order to please him. (And do not for one minute think that males are the only ones who try to pull that one.)

You keep talking about a relationship where one party in submission to the other as if it is impossible that this is not one-sided. You said, in fact: “I know you are trying to justify and sanatise one -sided submission but however you put it, it is about domination.”

OK, fine. Now, without backpedalling, explain the Trinity. While you’re at it, explain Ephesians 5 without explaining it away as a some cultural encrustation that doesn’t apply to modern marriage. You tell us what it means.
I have no interest in explaining or discussing anything to or with someone so arrogant and rude.
 
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