Authenticity of the Quran

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Hello,

I ask of somebody to prove that the Quran is an altered piece of literature and not divine. I’m sure that this topic has been discussed before, but I wish to learn all allegations of Islam and to refute them.
 
Hello,

I ask of somebody to prove that the Quran is an altered piece of literature and not divine. I’m sure that this topic has been discussed before, but I wish to learn all allegations of Islam and to refute them.
What criteria is there to assume that it is divine?
 
*In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana’a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure’s inner and outer roofs stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, although they did not realize it at the time. Their ignorance was excusable: mosques do not normally house graves, and this site contained no tombstones, no human remains, no funereal jewelry. It contained nothing more, in fact, than an unappealing mash of old parchment and paper documents – damaged books and individual pages of Arabic text, fused together by centuries of rain and dampness, gnawed into over the years by rats and insects. Intent on completing the task at hand, the laborers gathered up the manuscripts, pressed them into some twenty potato sacks, and set them aside on the staircase of one of the mosque’s minarets, where they were locked away – and where they would probably have been forgotten once again, were it not for Qadhi Isma’il al-Akwa’, then the president of the Yemeni Antiquities Authority, who realized the potential importance of the find. Al-Akwa’ sought international assistance in examining and preserving the fragments, and in 1979 managed to interest a visiting German scholar, who in turn persuaded the German government to organize and fund a restoration project. Soon after the project began, it became clear that the hoard was a fabulous example of what is sometimes referred to as a “paper grave” – in this case the resting place for, among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Koran, the Muslim holy scripture. In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam’s first two centuries – they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What’s more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/gif/blueQ2.gif
**A page from perhaps the world’s oldest extant Koran, from before 750 A.D. Ultraviolet light reveals even earlier Koranic writing underneath. Photograph by Gerd-R. Puin. **

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/gif/hoard.gif
From the Yemeni Hoard: probably a ninth- or tenth-century Koran. Photograph by Gerd-R. Puin.

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/gif/persian.gif
A page from an eleventh- or twelfth-century Persian Koran.
Courtesy of the Arthur M. Sackler Museum, Harvard University
Art Museums, Fund for the Acquisition of Islamic Art.


The mainly secular effort to reinterpret the Koran – in part based on textual evidence such as that provided by the Yemeni fragments – is disturbing and offensive to many Muslims, just as attempts to reinterpret the Bible and the life of Jesus are disturbing and offensive to many conservative Christians. Nevertheless, there are scholars, Muslims among them, who feel that such an effort, which amounts essentially to placing the Koran in history, will provide fuel for an Islamic revival of sorts – a reappropriation of tradition, a going forward by looking back. Thus far confined to scholarly argument, this sort of thinking can be nonetheless very powerful and – as the histories of the Renaissance and the Reformation demonstrate – can lead to major social change. The Koran, after all, is currently the world’s most ideologically influential text.

Looking at the Fragments

The first person to spend a significant amount of time examining the Yemeni fragments, in 1981, was Gerd-R. Puin, a specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography based at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. Puin, who had been sent by the German government to organize and oversee the restoration project, recognized the antiquity of some of the parchment fragments, and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Enticing, too, were the sheets of the scripture written in the rare and early Hijazi Arabic script: pieces of the earliest Korans known to exist, they were also palimpsests – versions very clearly written over even earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.

“So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Koran is just God’s unaltered word,” he says. “They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Koran has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Koran has a history too. The Sana’a fragments will help us to do this.”*
 
Whether or not the Qur’an has been altered over the centuries doesn’t bother me.

But I don’t think the Qur’an is divinely inspired, because I believe that God has revealed his standard via biblical prophecy. I don’t think the Qur’an can match this.

:twocents:
 
Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur’anic Manuscripts
*[It is interesting to note that the palaeographic and the radiocarbon datings sometimes nearly match each other. Radiocarbon dating can’t replace the traditional time-tested method of palaeography. Radiocarbon dating can only supplement the “traditional” palaeography and is rarely used in dating. In fact, von Bothmer points out that the radiocarbon dating is not only expensive but also has the results scattered over a long time period, sometimes spanning a few hundred years. He suggests that the “traditional” methods of Arabic palaeography are more precise and offer a smaller range for dating the Qur’anic manuscripts. Whilst proposing a new data-base method for collating, schematising and dating early Qur’anic manuscripts, Efim Rezvan laments at the methodological stagnation in accurately dating early Qur’anic manuscripts. With regard to modern-physical methods such as radiocarbon dating, he states:

Modern physical methods make it possible to date various kinds of written materials with an margin of error of 100-200 years either way. Hence, we cannot rely on these methods. It is our hope that the analysis of a great number of manuscripts using the data-base will enable us to find some new grounds for dating.

Similar conclusions have also been reached by Gerd-R. Puin who states:

Because determining the age of the parchment itself by scientific methods is still very inaccurate - the margin of error being ± 100 - 200 years! - an art historical approach, in this case, seems to be more suitable.](http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/radio.html)*
 
In a 1999 Atlantic Monthly article, Gerd Puin is quoted as saying that:

“My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.”

However after the publication of the Atlantic Monthly, Puin wrote a letter in which he said:
“The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur’anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur’an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur’an published in Cairo in which is written:
*
Ibrhim next to Ibrhm
Quran next to Qrn
Simahum next to Simhum*
In the oldest Yemeni Qur’anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common.”
**
In his book titled ‘The History of The Qur’ānic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments’, professor Muhammed Mustafa al-Azami concludes from Puin’s letter that**
“This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin’s discoveries and making them a topic unworthy of further speculation.” ”

Aisha Geissinger, a notable writer on Islam, notes in her article titled 'Orientalists plot against the Qur’an under the guise of academic study and archive preservation’
“The fact is that the existence of minor differences in wording and in the ordering of the surahs in the earliest masahif (manuscripts) is no surprise to Muslims familiar with classical Islamic scholarship of the Qur’an. Such variations occurred for several reasons. One factor is the dialectical differences then existing in different regions of Arabia. Another is that some of the Sahaba kiram (Companions) recorded such masahif for their own personal use. As these persons had either memorised the Qur’an in its entirety or large portions of it, such masahif were written merely as an aid to memory. Therefore, notes in the margins such as the wording of du’as (supplications) occurred, and the order of surahs varied. Books written by classical Muslim scholars, such as al-Suyuti’s Itqan, go into great detail about such issues.

Sana’a manuscripts from Wikipedia

Now let Waqas 411 inform us of what he thinks based on the reports given. 🙂
 
:rolleyes: “cathopologist”, that was a hard test for a newbie member ;).
 
:rolleyes: “cathopologist”, that was a hard test for a newbie member ;).
Not really, since he mentioned he is able to refute those claims. :rolleyes: I look forward to his discussions, especially with fellow Arabic-Christians. 😉
 
Wow. That was good.

All I would say is that Allah got the Trinity and Crucifixion wrong, and that is more than enough for me.
 
Hello,

I ask of somebody to prove that the Quran is an altered piece of literature and not divine. I’m sure that this topic has been discussed before, but I wish to learn all allegations of Islam and to refute them.
Peace Waqas,

This topic is , wihout doubt, very important to Muslims and it is a criteria used against the Bible. To us, however, it is not that important because first, even if a book is 100% preserved and even written down by the same author, it is not a proof of divine origin. As simple as this. Second, you cannot even level this argument against Christians, and Catholics specifically,because, unlike you, we do not believe in books dropping down from heaven but in an ummah who preserved the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. So instead of bringing this topic to refute the Bible, you must first refutes books and letters and testimonies of the first Christians, among them the apostles’ disciples.

The eternal mistake you commit is trying to project your understanding of revelation on our scriptures, something we do not hold in common to begin with.
 
Thank you, I’d never heard of this find. Any sources? It would be interesting to see a textual criticism critique applied to the Qu’ran.
The sources are there (linked-in text). There are lots of criticism on the Qur’an’s origins, but the PC media has always censored it. You know, they’d rather focus on gay priests, pedophile priests, the Catholic Church’s “wrongdoings” (as if we don’t know the Church has a bull’s eye on its back), etc. On top of that, you have Islamic sympathizers like Karen Armstrong kissing up to her Saudi masters.

Peter Viereck once said: "Anti-Catholicism is the anti-Semitism of intellectuals"
 
The claims used to establish its divine authority are demonstrably false.

Usually used are the “scientific miracles” of the Quran, literary perfection of the Quran, and the “lack of abrogation”.

If you have any questions concerning any of their “proofs”, post here, and I’ll answer them. I do have some experience with Muslim evangelicals, if that is the proper word.
 
What criteria is there to assume that it is divine?

Prophet Muhammad (sw) was illiterate before the revelation of the Quran, so how could he just make it up off the top of his head?
**
1972 Restoration of the Sana’a Masjid**

Now obviously, some information from this article is completely false. There is no paper grave in Islam. In fact, the 3rd Caliph (ruler of Islam), Uthman (or Usman) bin Affan ordered that all fragments of the Quran be burned. The proper method for ridding a parchment with the name of Allah is to burn the paper.

Also, we do have the Quran that Uthman bin Affan was reading when he was martyred. The bloodstains are actually still on that version of the Quran. It must contain well over half of the Quran, and guess what? It is the same as today’s version.

When the Quran was completely revealed, the issue was not as much about the words. The problem was that there were 7 dialects of Arabic, but because the Quran was revealed in the Quraishi dialect, it had to be recorded. Literally every Muslim was basically a hafiz (memorizer) of the Quran, and there were around 100,000 Muslims after the death of the Prophet (sw).
**
How about Biblical prophecy?**

Now, not all of the Bible has been corrupted. Some parts of it are not corrupt, such as when it predicts the one who praises (Muhammad sw). It also has several prophecies which refer to Islam.

Was the Quran understood at the time of Prophet Muhammad (sw)?

With so many tafsirs (basically explanations) of the Quran, the Quran was not very hard to understand. Not only do we have lots of information about each verse, we know a lot of history about the verses.
**
Why is the Quran sometimes difficult to understand?**

Does a textbook do you any good without the teacer? We also have the hadeeth, the narrations on the life of Prophet Muhammad (sw) to understand the Quran.

Why don’t you just refute the Bible?

Look, regardless of whomever it may be, the Quran is heavily criticized and there are too many misconceptions regarding it. It breaks my heart to know that this is the Truth, but it is being turned away due to others criticizing it and the insults being believed.

Regarding Miracles

Yes, it is true that the Quran has hundreds of miracles in it. Prophet Muhammad (sw) was blessed with many miracles from Allah (swt). Tell me, how did he escape and migrate to Medina when tons of enemy Quraishies were surrounding his house?
 
What criteria is there to assume that it is divine?

Prophet Muhammad (sw) was illiterate before the revelation of the Quran, so how could he just make it up off the top of his head?
**
1972 Restoration of the Sana’a Masjid**

Now obviously, some information from this article is completely false. There is no paper grave in Islam. In fact, the 3rd Caliph (ruler of Islam), Uthman (or Usman) bin Affan ordered that all fragments of the Quran be burned. The proper method for ridding a parchment with the name of Allah is to burn the paper.

Also, we do have the Quran that Uthman bin Affan was reading when he was martyred. The bloodstains are actually still on that version of the Quran. It must contain well over half of the Quran, and guess what? It is the same as today’s version.

When the Quran was completely revealed, the issue was not as much about the words. The problem was that there were 7 dialects of Arabic, but because the Quran was revealed in the Quraishi dialect, it had to be recorded. Literally every Muslim was basically a hafiz (memorizer) of the Quran, and there were around 100,000 Muslims after the death of the Prophet (sw).
**
How about Biblical prophecy?**

Now, not all of the Bible has been corrupted. Some parts of it are not corrupt, such as when it predicts the one who praises (Muhammad sw). It also has several prophecies which refer to Islam.

Was the Quran understood at the time of Prophet Muhammad (sw)?

With so many tafsirs (basically explanations) of the Quran, the Quran was not very hard to understand. Not only do we have lots of information about each verse, we know a lot of history about the verses.
**
Why is the Quran sometimes difficult to understand?**

Does a textbook do you any good without the teacer? We also have the hadeeth, the narrations on the life of Prophet Muhammad (sw) to understand the Quran.

Why don’t you just refute the Bible?

Look, regardless of whomever it may be, the Quran is heavily criticized and there are too many misconceptions regarding it. It breaks my heart to know that this is the Truth, but it is being turned away due to others criticizing it and the insults being believed.

Regarding Miracles

Yes, it is true that the Quran has hundreds of miracles in it. Prophet Muhammad (sw) was blessed with many miracles from Allah (swt). Tell me, how did he escape and migrate to Medina when tons of enemy Quraishies were surrounding his house?
um, how would one tell which part is corrupt, and which part isn’t?

How come the Qu’ran is correct and the bible isn’t?
 
The Bible is not correct (I do not intend to offend) because it is not the same text. I forgot what the original Biblical language is, but whatever it is, you should read it in that language. If you believe it to be Divine, then shouldn’t you read how it was revealed? Think about the number of translation mistakes that might occur. And nowadays, new versions are coming out each year for the Bible.
 
What criteria is there to assume that it is divine?

Prophet Muhammad (sw) was illiterate before the revelation of the Quran, so how could he just make it up off the top of his head?

Did Muhammad present his people with a written Qur’an - or did he recite it to them?
 
The Bible is not correct (I do not intend to offend) because it is not the same text. I forgot what the original Biblical language is, but whatever it is, you should read it in that language. If you believe it to be Divine, then shouldn’t you read how it was revealed? Think about the number of translation mistakes that might occur. And nowadays, new versions are coming out each year for the Bible.
weak
 
… I forgot what the original Biblical language is, but whatever it is, you should read it in that language. If you believe it to be Divine, then shouldn’t you read how it was revealed? …
:nope:
In any language, prophecy is the mark of divine revelation for Christians.
 
Waqas 411:
Does a textbook do you any good without the teacer? We also have the hadeeth, the narrations on the life of Prophet Muhammad (sw) to understand the Quran.
I forget - which ones commented on Mohamed’s love affair with a child?
 
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