Authority and Infallibility

[theMutant]

johnMark:

Ralph, I simply ask in reply given your above questions: Can anyone really know anything?

Of course one can REALLY know something. Otherwise, what is the point of this discussion or of asking any question whatsoever? Your question is a logical inconsistency. How can I answer it unless I know that you have asked it? It is like those who argue that there are no absolute truths without realizing that the statement is an absolute one and, therefore, the only way that it can be true is if it is false. How can you ask a question in response to what Ralph has written it if you cannot KNOW that he as done so? How can you be sure that your question is what you intended to ask unless you can rely on your ability to read and understand what you wrote. Likewise, we can know other things as well.

David W. Cooney o)

 

[TonyD]

Mutant, good work.
Your responses have inspired me to learn more about our Catholic faith.

TonyD

 

[theMutant]

centuri0n:

The question is only is that authority must be essentially infallible, and the answer is no.

centuri0n,

Possibly I started off on the wrong track when I originally replied to your post. If your question is whether or not authority itself is necessarily infallible, then I have to agree that the answer is no. I have authority over my children, an authority I believe has been established by God, and yet that does not make me infallible. My employer has certain authority over me and she is not infallible. The government also has authority and is not infallible.

I would have to agree that simply being an authority does not necessitate infallibility. However, as I stated in my previous posts, the reason that I accept and assert the infallibility of the Church is NOT because she is an authority but because of the purpose of that authority and the One who gave her that authority. The Church is infallible because she cannot fulfill the purpose of her authority without the gift of infallibility. Since God established that purpose and has the power to give her the gift of infallibility, I believe that this is precisely what He has done.

If he didn’t to whom or what could I turn to know the teachings of God? I cannot fall back on what the Scriptures say because I rely on the Church’s authoritative and infallible declaration to know what writings constitute Scripture. Without an infallible Church, I would cease to be a Christian because Christianity becomes nothing more than the collective opinions of people gathered together. We would end up with multiple demoninations and countless non-demoninational churches all claiming to adhere to the word of God but coming to contradictory conclusions. It would mean that Christ’s prayer that we all be one was not granted (of course, the only reason I believe He made that prayer is because the Chruch has told me that the writing in which I read the passage is Scripture).

David W. Cooney o)

 

[ralphinal]

johnMark:

Ralph, I simply ask in reply given your above questions: Can anyone really know anything?

Instead of showing how infalliblity and authority must either go hand in hand or are, in a sense, interchangable your questions assume as much. If your premise is true concerning authority/infallibility then why are so few things infallibly defined? And why is it so tough to find such agreement on what is or is not infallibly defined? This goes to show that authority does not need infallibility.

Mark

Good questions. First, most of the faith is infallably taught. The definitions only come up from a controversy. For example, at no point in time has the CHurch defined the resurection. Why? Because there is no controversy on it. Doctrines can be defined by Councils or by the Pope, but that is only done when there is an issue. If ther is no heresy or disagreement, why define it? Second, faith tells us many things. I must have faith in Christ. Faith in CHrist means that I must beleive that he will always act in the best spiritual interest of his flock. That said, a church that can teach error is not in the best interest of us poor sheep. Besides, those that hear Christ hear the truth…

 

[Cephas]

tickleme_kristi:

Genesis 3:22 - ‘Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life . . .’

Once again, nowhere in this verse does God say He is a Trinity.
“us” does not equally Trinity. What I mean is that if you were to read this verse alone, can you show how God is saying He is a Trinity? No you can’t. “us” IMPLIES more than one, but does not equal three.

Connection: Mt. 16 - “and the gates of Hades** will not prevail ** against it.” One can look to here, and many other places, and show the promise of not allowing error to “prevail against” the church. Infallibilty.

 

[Cephas]

johnMark:

Wasn’t it “authority” that allowed the proclamation of infallibility?

jM

NO!

 

[Richard_Lamb]

Mathew 28:18: And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am** with** you always, to the close of the age."

He never abandones his church…
John 16:13: When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

and the Classic
Mat 16:18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, **and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
**
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

These promises were made speciphicaly to his apostles…the church inherits these promises…

 

[plakamhil]

Apologia100:

Nowhere in the Constitution (or anywhere else for that matter) does God guarantee that the government of the US would never fall into error. That being said, the constitution assigns authority to the duly elected President, but doesn’t guarantee that he will make infallible statements when it comes to governing our country.

 

[plakamhil]

johnMark:

Wasn’t it “authority” that allowed the proclamation of infallibility?

jM

A proclamation (i.e. making known publicly) by an infallible authority, yes!