Authority needs to be authenticated by sign/miracle

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This guy i’m having discussions with said that the “authority” being claimed by the church should be authenticated by miracles and signs and he pointed out Hebrews 2:4. To give his exact quote:

“And you realize in order to be an apostle you had to perform miracles to authenticate your teaching correct?”

However, when the discussion went a little far, this is now his assertion:

“Interesting. Well I’ll leave you with this. Consider that the apostles performed signs and wonders to authenticate their authority.”

I would love to hear your thoughts on this and maybe a good response to him.

Thank you so much in advance! =)

P.S. Here is his other replies [for context]

"You see, before the written word this is how the word of God was confirmed… and why there were apostles that performed signs and miracles. Anytime a new region or area/group/people received the gospel there were signs and miracles performed by the apostles (or others) to confirm the message is true. Jesus Himself did this as well…

Mark 2:9-11 NASBS
[9] Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? [10] But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"-He said to the paralytic, [11] “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.”

However once God was finished speaking we have now the written word to confirm the truth"
 
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Hi Po18guy, I’m trying to relate to your reply. Are you referring to the guy i’m discussing with?
 
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The point being that even “deceased” 12 year olds bring unexplained medical miracles. No Benny Hinn needed.

As to his specious claim, ask him how many miracles are recorded in his bible regarding Simon the Zealot…Jude Thaddeus…Andrew…James…Thomas…etc.

Not a single one, although they surely performed some. How does he know that Bishops do not produce miracles? Priests? Religious Sisters and Brothers?

In truth, many Saints produce more miracles after they are in the Lord’s presence than they do while in our presence.

What miracles can his pastor show? A $5,000 Hugo Boss suit? An “S” class Mercedes?
 
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You did gave me a good argument about the other disciples. But to give you more about the context, I’ll include his other replies in the original post
 
I believe Jesus specifically addressed this.
‘There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham.[a] The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. 24 He called out, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.” 25 But Abraham said, “Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.” 27 He said, “Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.” 29 Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.” 30 He said, “No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” 31 He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”’
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I know it’s not the exact same situation. But this passage seems to imply that people who ask for signs and miracles simply have no faith. The miracle was Jesus rising from the dead. Not everyone is going to see a miracle in their life. If we had solid proof of Jesus words then we wouldn’t need faith.
 
Ok so a miracle is produced in a church under bishop X. Because of the structure of the church, the priest of the parish in which the miracle happened is under obedience to the bishop and the bishop blessed the priest’s church with the charisma the bishop received from the Gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not that the bishop, nor the priest, nor the healer if there was one, performed the miracle but the Holy Spirit one with God. Who knows everything including the Apostolic hierarchy of the church in which He made the miracle possible. So how is this not proof of the Apostolic authority of bishop X who is bishop within the Church and thus proof of the Apostolic authority of the Church herself?
Because miracles do take place, and to talk in abstract about it is futile. Your friend should probably try tracking them down, even if there are few or one they still are. Miracles are not like some magic glittery moment they are presence of God, and I mean… that is God we are talking about not some leader in the world, or form of energy but God.
So what your friend sounds like is that he is talking about multitude of miracles or lack thereof. And this is not grounded in the Bible. Jesus Christ also criticized the need for miracles here:
Matthew chapter 16:
"The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

2 He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ 3 and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.[a] 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away."

And here Peter again says that signs and the Cross are not necessarily linked:
"19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
 
And yes so did Martin Luther produce any miracles? What about the other reformers? In fact, it seems that one reason why the reformers initially came up with cessationism (no more miracles after the Apostolic age) precisely because people in the 16th century were wondering where all the miracles were in order to confirm the Protestant movement.

The fact is, Catholicism has always been loaded with miracles. The truth and goodness of the Catholic faith is confirmed in the sanctity of its holiest members, the saints. God continues to provide extraordinary signs in the Catholic faith, from healings and exorcisms to Marian apparitions and Eucharistic miracles. The Catholic faith has mystics and saints who have bilocated, endured stigmata, healed others, prophesized, and so on.

So really, your friend’s charge has backfired on him. The Catholic Church is full of miracles and always has been: The church has never believed miracles of have ceased. But on the other hand, the Protestant movement experienced no miracles to authenticate its doctrines or the reformers’ authority.

I mean from what you have written, your friend is not really making sense. The Catholic Church is not a new authority that popped up and suddenly needs to prove itself through miracles. Yes, this may be expected for a self-proclaimed new prophet, like Joseph Smith or Martin Luther or so on. But the Catholic Church has been around since the first century, with its bishops leading with genuine Apostolic authority.
 
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When the Apostolic miracles are miracles demonstrating Catholic Truth…

But, the Catholic Faith has always been chock full of miracles, throughout all of history.

Do you know how many miracles have happened throughout it?

I mean, St Constantine just for one saw the miracle that convinced him to make Christianity (ie Catholicism) legal in Rome.
 
Hi!

The problem with such understanding is that it dismisses the actual event:
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (St. John 20)
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Signs were for the un-Believers!

As the Holy Spirit Unfolded the Truth (Jesus’ Word) there was less and less the need to have signs to demonstrate authority; consider too, that Pentecost only happened once; that as Believers were Gathered by the Holy Spirit to the Church (the Twelve, plus One), there were less and less signs demonstrated; consider too that Jesus did not prescribe “signs” or “miracles” or “manifestations” to demonstrate that the Church was indeed in place:
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (St. John 17)
33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (St. John 13)
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Do you see that it is not about signs? Here’s St. Paul’s take on those who conjured up such affinities:
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians)
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Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, Adam!

…not only that but Jesus Reveals that even when He does Rise many will refuse to Believe!

It is not about the miracles/wonders; it is about man’s determination to reject God… it’s the ‘show me, so I will grant you the favor of believing in you!’ (…all the while knowing deep in his heart that he will not believe no matter what the sign/s may be)

Maran atha!

Angel
 
catholic1seeks said:
And yes so did Martin Luther produce any miracles? What about the other reformers?
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They did indeed! They splintered the Body of Christ into schisms upon schisms and called it “reformation.” Then those who were seeking the liberties and freedom of conjuring their own version of ‘the Holy Spirit guided me to…’ jumped the wagon and thirty thousand plus schisms later…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Miracles HAPPEN EVERY day in Every Catholic Church at Mass; Jesus Christ is made **Really, Truly and Substantially **Present [this means the Entire Jesus] Amen

Secondly, in the sin forgiveness passage you shared, it was NOT the physical healing; BUT the Spiritual Healing that was SIGNIFICANT according to Jesus; and this takes palce at every Sacramental Confession throughout the world.

As to that persons WHY question:

Miracles still happen [just GOOGLE miracles]; but the better question is WHY do miracles still happen.

The Miracles that Jesus preformed that dealt in some way with a lack of faith; and that STILL remains the reason God performs miracles.

Some issue just are not worth responding too IMO

Pray very much

Patrick
 
The teaching of “the believers authority” by
Kenneth hagen . gives a scripture basis of what is possible.

And what saint Paul said. In 2 cor .20- 25?
All the promices of God are yes and Amen.

But it is I teresting to read the different opinions.
 
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