Authority of the Catholic Church?

[Phil_H]

michaelgazin:

Ok, I have a question when it comes to defending the Catholic Church, and I mean the Catholic Church itself.

We know that the Church is infallible and guided by the Holy Spirit, and we know that the bible is inspired because the Church determined which books were in the 4th century under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We also know that the Church is infallible because of what the bible says about the Church. I do not know how to effectively answer non-catholic charges when they acknowledge this circular argument.

This is how protestant apologist James White put it:

“if Rome determines the extent of both Scripture and ‘tradition,’ and the meaning of both Scripture and ‘tradition,’ how can she logically be subservient to two things that she in fact defines and interprets?””

Thanks for the help!
Michael

Do you mean the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[gelsbern]

Lorarose:

For me …the most convincing argument came from Jesus when He said to Peter…

“Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

If Jesus did not give Peter a special gift that protected him from “binding and loosing” in error - then He would have set up a situation where human error could be “introduced” into heaven.
Can’t happen.

He gave that bind and loose to all the Apostles, not just Peter.

Matthew 18:1-18

And he gave the power of forgiving sins to all of the Apostles as well

John 20:19-23

This power is passed to all successors of all the Apostles, not just the successor of Peter.

 

[trogiah]

Lorarose:

For me …the most convincing argument came from Jesus when He said to Peter…

“Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

If Jesus did not give Peter a special gift that protected him from “binding and loosing” in error - then He would have set up a situation where human error could be “introduced” into heaven.
Can’t happen.

That would seem reasonable, and yet, immediately after Jesus gave Peter the keys, Peter tried to talk him out of going to his death in Jerusalem and Jesus reprimanded him severely. But he didn’t take away the keys.

I can’t say I understand perfectly how it is all supposed to work, but I question the apparently widely held view that we should accept the authority of the Church because it is never wrong. I would suggest that perhaps we are called to accept the Church’s authority even though it may not be excercised perfectly. Consider what Jesus says regarding those who had “inherited the chair of Moses.” “Do everything they say and observe everything they tell you but do not follow their example.” Jesus then proceeds to give those who inherited the chair of Moses the most scathing of criticisms.

I believe we are called to accept human authority, Church authority, not because it is always without flaw but because to do otherwise causes disunity and great harm. I believe the wholesale slaughter of humans that happened all over Europe during WWll would not have happened if the church had not been divided.

Acceptance of flawed church authority is part of the price of unity. I do believe that, in time, God will correct any errors on the part of the church, but that will be in God’s time, not ours.

peace

-Jim

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Why is it so unpalatable to think that belief in the authority of the Catholic Church can be proven in a court of intellectual “law?”

If it could be, faith would be neither necessary or relevant to the issue.

Perhaps we think that our faith is only meaningful if we have a mathematical formula to overwhelmingly convince others who don’t share the faith, that our views are in fact, correct.

It’s as if Thomas came in and we insisted that we could prove Christ before he actually showed up and showed Thomas His wounds, and then we set about to do so. We repeat the same stories with increasing vigor and conviction, and then tell Thomas he is hypocritical and ridiculous for not believing when, in fact, he has nothing other than our word to go on. Good thing Jesus didn’t take that approach.

Let’s show some faith, dudes. To say that the Good News and the Church authority therewith can be “proven” mathematically or scientifically or logically or whatever, is a reductionist viewpoint that denies faith.

If we really think want to demonstrate something to doubters, then let us increase our faith, take up our crosses, and receive the Stigmata (either physically or at least in spirit), and then we too can show others the woundsso that they may believe.

Plus, if we really want to get logical, since there is not conclusive modern day evidence, then in today’s world the Church derives her authority on earth from the body of Christ who believes in her. If nobody believed the Church, then it would be perfectly clear she had no earthly authority. (as some would say, well duhhh)

Alan

 

[Maccabees]

gelsbern:

He gave that bind and loose to all the Apostles, not just Peter.

Matthew 18:1-18

And he gave the power of forgiving sins to all of the Apostles as well

John 20:19-23

This power is passed to all successors of all the Apostles, not just the successor of Peter.

Yes that is treu but from a catholic perspective it seen this way the apostles in union with Peter have these powers. Of course Peter is the Rock uniquely and is given the Keys uniquely. Of course the arguments of the other apostles is rendered moot if you don’t belong to an apostolic church. If yuour a protestant none of these powers have been given to your hierarchy or church. For these reasons catholics give validilty to all the sacraments to Orthodox churches they share in the apostolic gifts that all the apostles were given by Jesus. Of course there is a primacy given to Peter as to what degree has been of great debate the last 1000 years but during the first 1000 years there seems to me at least that when the East where in a bind they had no problem turning to the Pope in Councils and disputes to settle the question.
The Catholic -Orthodox question is more applicable to the verses you pointed out. The Catholic - PRotestant question would not apply here since protestants do no inherit the apostolic succession implied here.