Authority of the Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter ladylinguist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Old_Scholar said:
I’m sure you are aware that the church came later…Nite!
Click to expand...
Next time buddy, start with Matthew 16:18 if you want to talk about the Church…or, if you really were a scholar, you would start from the OT.
 
Old_Scholar said:
And you don’t think that believing those ‘doctrines of man’ will take you further away from God?
Click to expand...
I haven’t followed any Catholic teaching that hasn’t led me closer to God.

As a matter of fact, the closer I follow the teachings of the Church - the “unique” things, like daily Mass, Confession, the Rosary, fasting, and abstaining from meats - the closer I feel to God.

For instance, I noteiced that it was shortly after I started saying the Rosary daily, that I found I was attending Daily Mass more often. So I did a poll, and I found that about 80% of those who attend daily Mass multiple times a week, had been saying the rosary daily prior to attending daily Mass.

Now, what does that seem to indicate?
 
Old_Scholar said:
And you don’t think that believing those ‘doctrines of man’ will take you further away from God?
Click to expand...
BTW, which “doctrines”? The Pharisees or what you call the Church’s.

If its the Pharisees, I don’t see your point, because Jesus still:
a) told the Jews to obey the Pharisees.
and
b) took the vineyard away from the wicked tenants (the Pharisees) and gave it to new tenants (the Church).
 
Old Scholar, I posted this yesterday and I wanted to get your thoughts on this.
NotWorthy said:
I think that is because of the sheer numbers. You must understand, all the Chalices would need to be on the altar when the Bread and the Wine are Consecrated. With a 1/2 million people in attendance and considering that 100-200 could possibly drink from one cup, that would still leave over 250 chalices!!!

And furthermore, they all have to be on the same linen cloth on that Altar when the Eucharistic Prayers are said. The Wine is never left over from a previous Mass, unlike the Hosts, so ALL the wine would have to be present on the Altar for the 1/2 million people in attendance. The Hosts, however, could have been consecrated at a smaller Mass and brought from the Tabernacle right before Communion.

So, I think the problem is one with logistics, not permittance. And remember, just because one doesn’t drink from the Cup doesn’t mean one doesn’t partake of His Precious Blood (as long as they took the Communion Host).
Click to expand...
Does this explain why you don’t see the Laity partaking from the Chalices?
 
PD
You asked:
Where in the Bible does it say:
• We are saved, or justified, by faith alone?
Click to expand...
St Paul seems to hold this view.

For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law (NRSV, Rom 3:28)

You might like to look at JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
40.The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. … .
Click to expand...
41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.
Click to expand...
 
Old_Scholar said:
If Elijah was taken to heaven to be with God, how did he write a letter years later (6) and have it delivered?
Click to expand...
That is in Scripture as well. If you study Elijah, it was common for God to “take him up” to another place and put him down. He did that several times and all the people knew it. Why do you think 50 people looked for Elijah in the surrounding mountians since they “saw” God take him into heaven? That’s Scripture as well.Real simple…there are two possibilities here.
  1. It could have been written before he was taken and then delivered by Elisha or a servant at the appropriate time.
  2. It is actually an attribution. A common thing in the Bible where someone well removed from the actual person named writes it and attributes it to a well known author. It’s pretty common in the Old Testament and is well documented. This would be my own belief. It does not invalidate its inspiration since the early church canonized it.
As to Elijah… you prove wrong again since Elisha says, “Did I not say to you, Do not go?” meaning that he knew what had really happened. (and clearly, since you disagree, you don’t.) 🤷
 
Old_Scholar said:
In the early years, many bishops were called ‘pope’ but it wasn’t until the 6th century that one of them made the claim to have authority over all the others. Once they made all the others believe that, then they were forbidden to call themselves pope. Only the “supreme pope” could make that claim. This is all old history and is in any College level or high school level history book. It isn’t a claim of mine. It is proven history.

I believe it was Gregory who condemned the person who made the first claim of superiority and said that he himself had denied the same title when it was offered to him.
Click to expand...
Verifiable documentation?
 
NotWorthy said:
Old Scholar, I posted this yesterday and I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

Does this explain why you don’t see the Laity partaking from the Chalices?
Click to expand...
No not really. There aren’t 1/2 million people partaking of the Eucharist. Just those inside the mass. I know the church has enough facilities to provide enough chalices for everyone to partake. They provide enough people to pass out the bread with no problem and usually there are no more than 6 or 8 o them.

Also, as I have mentioned before, I know and have worked with many Catholics who went to mass often and those churches did not offer the chalice at all to the laity. I would guestimate that of all I have made sure they were able to attend mass when they wanted to, about 80% of them attended mass where the chalice was not offered. I have no reason to say this if it was not my experience. In addition, I have quoted Roman Catholic decrees, bulls or whatever you call them where the laity has been denied the chalice. Probably in this very thread.
 
Old_Scholar said:
And you don’t think that believing those ‘doctrines of man’ will take you further away from God?
Click to expand...
I haven’t seen any of those in the Catholic Church…but the post modern reformation step children are loaded with them since they start with their fundamental error of Sola Scriptura and the rest devolve from there.

…and having no inclination to submit to any authority but their own particular group there is no one to bring discipline and correction among them as there (scripturally) should be.

So it goes on and on and on and on and on…
 
Old_Scholar said:
No not really. There aren’t 1/2 million people partaking of the Eucharist. Just those inside the mass. I know the church has enough facilities to provide enough chalices for everyone to partake. They provide enough people to pass out the bread with no problem and usually there are no more than 6 or 8 o them.

Also, as I have mentioned before, I know and have worked with many Catholics who went to mass often and those churches did not offer the chalice at all to the laity. I would guestimate that of all I have made sure they were able to attend mass when they wanted to, about 80% of them attended mass where the chalice was not offered. I have no reason to say this if it was not my experience. In addition, I have quoted Roman Catholic decrees, bulls or whatever you call them where the laity has been denied the chalice. Probably in this very thread.
Click to expand...
And I proved you wrong even from your own anti-Catholic source.
 
NoelFitz said:
PD
You asked:

St Paul seems to hold this view.

For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law (NRSV, Rom 3:28)

You might like to look at JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Click to expand...
I believe this is a good step and the summation is a valid one:

43.Our consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification must come to influence the life and teachings of our churches. Here it must prove itself. In this respect, there are still questions of varying importance which need further clarification. These include, among other topics, the relationship between the Word of God and church doctrine, as well as ecclesiology, ecclesial authority, church unity, ministry, the sacraments, and the relation between justification and social ethics. We are convinced that the consensus we have reached offers a solid basis for this clarification. The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church will continue to strive together to deepen this common understanding of justification and to make it bear fruit in the life and teaching of the churches.
 
Church_Militant said:
Real simple…there are two possibilities here.
  1. It could have been written before he was taken and then delivered by Elisha or a servant at the appropriate time.
  2. It is actually an attribution. A common thing in the Bible where someone well removed from the actual person named writes it and attributes it to a well known author. It’s pretty common in the Old Testament and is well documented. This would be my own belief. It does not invalidate its inspiration since the early church canonized it.
As to Elijah… you prove wrong again since Elisha says, “Did I not say to you, Do not go?” meaning that he knew what had really happened. (and clearly, since you disagree, you don’t.) 🤷
Click to expand...
This letter could not have been written in advance because it mentions things that happened much later than Elijah’s departure.
 
Church_Militant said:
I haven’t seen any of those in the Catholic Church…but the post modern reformation step children are loaded with them since they start with their fundamental error of Sola Scriptura and the rest devolve from there.

…and having no inclination to submit to any authority but their own particular group there is no one to bring discipline and correction among them as there (scripturally) should be.

So it goes on and on and on and on and on…
Click to expand...
What about those you can’t explain—those mentioned previously. They aren’t doctrines from Scripture, but from man alone.
 
Old_Scholar said:
I know hundreds of Catholics and have been with them when they went to mass i at least 12 different states. In fact I let them off work in order to go. They all were only offered the bread and not the cup, so I now most churches do not offer it. That differs from Christ’s commands.
Click to expand...
What year/s were these? I, for one, have been receiving both forms since Vatican II.
 
Old_Scholar said:
I know hundreds of Catholics and have been with them when they went to mass i at least 12 different states. In fact I let them off work in order to go. They all were only offered the bread and not the cup, so I now most churches do not offer it. That differs from Christ’s commands.
Click to expand...
Church_Militant said:
Verifiable documentation?
Click to expand...
Old_Scholar said:
Your request is a little disingenuous. We all know who wrote the Bible and it was not a “church” in the sense you use it. True, as I said before, they, as believers, were members of Christ’s Church but you can’t truthfully say “the Church wrote the Bible.”
Click to expand...
Of course the Church didn’t “write” the Bible, but the various writings, teachings etc. that were available from the beginning of written church history was gathered by the Church and this is called, the BIBLE.
 
Old_Scholar said:
So you’re willing to believe something just because someone wrote it long ago? Wouldn’t you rather believe something written in the first century that has run the gambit of the early church leaders who carefully and thoughtfully, as well as prayerfully, believed to be the inspired Word of God? How could anyone be sure of what was said and taught if it wasn’t written down?
Click to expand...
So can’t we say the same of the TRADITIONS and DOCTRINES of the Church? The writings of the Early Church Fathers are always referred to when a decision is to be made about beliefs in addition to Scripture and Tradition. ie. Tradition which is the core of Catholic belief such as the Sacrifice of the Mass and the other six sacraments. What is decided by the Church as necessary for the spiritual welfare of its members is not pulled willy nilly from various undocumented sources.
 
Old_Scholar said:
So you’re willing to believe something just because someone wrote it long ago? Wouldn’t you rather believe something written in the first century that has run the gambit of the early church leaders who carefully and thoughtfully, as well as prayerfully, believed to be the inspired Word of God? How could anyone be sure of what was said and taught if it wasn’t written down?
Click to expand...
Old_Scholar said:
Well see…that’s where you are wrong. Members of the church wrote the Bible. The church, as you refer to it, had nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...
As I said in a previous post. The Old Testament of the Bible was “written” by many different people. Those writings which we call the New Testament were written by Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. All of the accepted writings, from both the Old and New Testaments were then consolidated by the Catholic Church into what we now call the Bible.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top