Authority of the Church

[Old_Scholar]

I am confused. Are you talking about the Old or New Testament? If the old, I believe Christ came to create a New Covenant. He drank wine.

Christ was applying for the office of bishop either. Christ never told anyone to not drink wine, except through Paul when qualifying what constitutes the rules for bishops.

 

[Old_Scholar]

“There is no difference in ‘avoidance’ and taking a pill or using other methods.”

When a woman takes a birth control pill she is taking an abortificant. There has not been a bcp discovered as yet, that is not. Since abortion is one of the great evils of our time, I am sure you can understand why the Church forbids contraception using a bcp.

"

That is not true. Not producing an egg is not an abortion. An abortion can only occur after the egg is fertilized and it becomes a human life. You can’t ‘abort’ something that isn’t there.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Are you talking of the Masses in St.Peter’s Square on Easter and Christmas?!? There’s over a million people attending those Masses. I was using 1/2 a million just to be conservative.

I’m going to start a poll on this. We’ll see.

There may be a million or more there but they are not all participating in the Eucharist. Only those in the hall.

 

[NoelFitz]

In post 549 I read
Quote:

Those writings which we call the New Testament were written by Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. (Elts1956)

…the author of most of the Bible, Paul (OS)

I disagree with Elts1956.
There is more in the NT than the Gospels.

I disagree with OS.
The Bible is composed of both the OT and the NT.

In the thread Authority of the Church very many topics are being touched on. None is being seriously debated.

In fact it seems OS is disagreeing with everyone else.

In the thread EPISCOPOS, PRESBUTEROS, DIAKONOS there is an attempt to study these three terms iin the NT in a respectful and accurate way. Agreement is being sought.

I would request you to participate in this thread.

 

[Old_Scholar]

In post 549 I read
Quote:

I disagree with Elts1956.
There is more in the NT than the Gospels.

I disagree with OS.
The Bible is composed of both the OT and the NT.

In the thread Authority of the Church very many topics are being touched on. None is being seriously debated.

In fact it seems OS is disagreeing with everyone else.

In the thread EPISCOPOS, PRESBUTEROS, DIAKONOS there is an attempt to study these three terms iin the NT in a respectful and accurate way. Agreement is being sought.

I would request you to participate in this thread.

You are correct of course. We were talking about the NT so I should have said Paul wrote most of the NT. Thanks

I will see if I can find the other thread.

 

[NoelFitz]

OS

Sorry I was so picky.

However, it could be argued that Luke (his Gospel and Acts) may have written more than Paul. If one accepts that Paul wrote only seven authentic Letters, this would reinforce the claim that Luke contributed more words to the NT than did Paul.

However the point is not of great significance.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

It seems you are painting all Protestants with the same brush.

Actually, quite the opposite. I was demonstrating the impossibility of painting all Protestants with any kind of brush since they hold to conflicting and contradictory doctrines! I never said, “All Protestants believe _____.” My list contained certain beliefs that are found in one or another Protestant community that are not found in Scripture.

If I posted a picture of the pope kissing the Koran—would that be true of all Catholics?

You won’t find such a picture, to my knowledge. I believe it was an Arabic Bible that JPII was kissing, if I remember that correctly.

I don’t make the claim that all Protestants agree any more than you make the claim that all RCC agrees. If you do make such a claim then you are not up to date.

I can go into any, ANY Catholic Church and ask to see their Catechism and every one of them will have the same book. The official teaching of the Catholic Church (not just the Roman/Latin Rite) is exactly the same world-wide. While there are dissenters in every group, the unity in doctrine found in the Catholic Church is what the Church actually teaches, not what individual people believe. No such animal in the Protestant world, even though they all use essentially the same book, one group of people will say that the Holy Spirit led them to believe, for example, that baptism is salvific, and then on the next block another group claims that the Holy Spirit led them to believe that baptism is symbolic and definitely not salvific! How can the Holy Spirit lead people into conflicting and contradictory “truth”?

The only thing you listed that could be considered doctrine is the justification by faith alone and that is taught quite definitely taught in Scripture. Protestants have not changed that.

If salvation by faith alone is “definitely taught in Scripture,” then why does the phrase “faith alone” appear only once in all of Scripture…and that is to say that we are not justified by “faith alone” (James 2:24)?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

PD
You asked:

Where in the Bible does it say:
• We are saved, or justified, by faith alone?

Absolutely St Paul says, “…faith apart from works of law” meaning the Mosaic Law, but he never ever says “faith alone.”

 

[MDK]

The only thing you listed that could be considered doctrine is the justification by faith alone and that is taught quite definitely taught in Scripture. Protestants have not changed that.

Dear OS,
It is easier to read Scripture when one is Protestant… just skip over the parts that don’t agree with your doctrine, like James 2:24. How do you Protestants pretend to defend Salvation by Faith alone, when it’s clearly contradicted by Scripture? Protestants actually protest the true Church, like you have demonstrated in every thread I’ve seen you bring your lies. You spend a lot of time researching these things, and it’s a shame that after all that, you get it wrong. I have limited patience with you guys and your false claims.

 

[NotWorthy]

There may be a million or more there but they are not all participating in the Eucharist. Only those in the hall.

I think you’re wrong, here. The priests go out into the crowd and distribute communion. All at the Mass, who are Catholic, are invited to partake. I know several people who have gone to the Masses and they receive the Blessed Communion.

 

[Old_Scholar]

OS

Sorry I was so picky.

However, it could be argued that Luke (his Gospel and Acts) may have written more than Paul. If one accepts that Paul wrote only seven authentic Letters, this would reinforce the claim that Luke contributed more words to the NT than did Paul.

However the point is not of great significance.

More than likely, Paul wrote 14 as we have in the NT.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Actually, quite the opposite. I was demonstrating the impossibility of painting all Protestants with any kind of brush since they hold to conflicting and contradictory doctrines! I never said, “All Protestants believe _____.” My list contained certain beliefs that are found in one or another Protestant community that are not found in Scripture.

You won’t find such a picture, to my knowledge. I believe it was an Arabic Bible that JPII was kissing, if I remember that correctly.

I can go into any, ANY Catholic Church and ask to see their Catechism and every one of them will have the same book. The official teaching of the Catholic Church (not just the Roman/Latin Rite) is exactly the same world-wide. While there are dissenters in every group, the unity in doctrine found in the Catholic Church is what the Church actually teaches, not what individual people believe. No such animal in the Protestant world, even though they all use essentially the same book, one group of people will say that the Holy Spirit led them to believe, for example, that baptism is salvific, and then on the next block another group claims that the Holy Spirit led them to believe that baptism is symbolic and definitely not salvific! How can the Holy Spirit lead people into conflicting and contradictory “truth”?

If salvation by faith alone is “definitely taught in Scripture,” then why does the phrase “faith alone” appear only once in all of Scripture…and that is to say that we are not justified by “faith alone” (James 2:24)?

If you go into most protestant churches today you will find that they all have a copy of the Bible there. That is their rule of faith. Nothing else is required. (Edited)

Justification by faith is taught often in Scripture. There are many verses pertaining to that—not just a few.

In the case of James, you are not reading it accurately. He is saying that faith is what produces the works—not that works produces the faith. Keep reading that chapter.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Absolutely St Paul says, “…faith apart from works of law” meaning the Mosaic Law, but he never ever says “faith alone.”

Read my last post. Paul often says that faith is all that is needed. He says it is by faith we are justified many times. He specifically begins with saying that Abraham was justified by faith. I would be happy to provide you with the Scriptures.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Dear OS,
It is easier to read Scripture when one is Protestant… just skip over the parts that don’t agree with your doctrine, like James 2:24. How do you Protestants pretend to defend Salvation by Faith alone, when it’s clearly contradicted by Scripture? Protestants actually protest the true Church, like you have demonstrated in every thread I’ve seen you bring your lies. You spend a lot of time researching these things, and it’s a shame that after all that, you get it wrong. I have limited patience with you guys and your false claims.

James doesn’t contradict Paul. James writes that it is faith that produces works and that faith without works is dead. Where does he say it is works and works alone that produces faith?

 

[Old_Scholar]

I think you’re wrong, here. The priests go out into the crowd and distribute communion. All at the Mass, who are Catholic, are invited to partake. I know several people who have gone to the Masses and they receive the Blessed Communion.

That’s quite possible, I haven’t been there in person—all I know is what I see on TV about those masses.

I do wonder however, how the priest makes sure those taking the communion are worthy? If he should give communion to one he knows is unworthy then he is as guilty as those who take it unworthily.

It reminds me of the news story that showed the transvestite getting communion from a priest in a catholic church in San Francisco. The priest should not have given it.

 

[NotWorthy]

If you go into most protestant churches today you will find that they all have a copy of the Bible there. That is their rule of faith. Nothing else is required. And with the Roman Catholics you will find many churches where the bishop is homosexual,

No, you won’t.

…and where they perform homosexual marriages,

No, you won’t.

…where they offer communion to whomever comes forward,

sadly, some do. Sometimes, because they don’t know the recipient (which is as it should be), but sometimes even when they know the recipient is sinful.

where some priests are married and some are not, etc…on and on.

I didn’t know it was sinful to be a married priests. What’s up with that accusation?

Justification by faith is taught often in Scripture. There are many verses pertaining to that—not just a few.

In the case of James, you are not reading it accurately. He is saying that faith is what produces the works—not that works produces the faith. Keep reading that chapter.

I don’t think anyone is claiming that works create faith - they may bolster our faith, but they aren’t salvatory, in and of themselves. Just as our faith is useless, if we aren’t putting it into our works.

Faith and works are two sides of the very same coin. You can’t have one without the other if you wish be justified.

St. Paul calls this the obedience of Faith.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

If you go into most protestant churches today you will find that they all have a copy of the Bible there. That is their rule of faith. Nothing else is required.

Except they can’t seem to agree on what the Bible actually teaches.

And with the Roman Catholics you will find many churches where the bishop is homosexual,

Actively homosexual? Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Episcopalian “bishop” in New Hampshire? He’s no Catholic.

and where they perform homosexual marriages,

Again, it sounds like you’re confusing the Catholic Church with the Episcopalians. No Catholic Church will join two people of the same gender in the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

where they offer communion to whomever comes forward,

Yes, that can happen and unfortunately does. Until priests are given the supernatural ability to tell whether or not someone is a Catholic in a state of grace, they have no choice but to give the recipient the benefit of the doubt.

where some priests are married and some are not, etc…on and on.

I’m not sure what the problem is here.

Justification by faith is taught often in Scripture. There are many verses pertaining to that—not just a few.

Yes, we’re justified by faith, which is dead without works. Our good works (not works of the OT Law) are what God has ordained for us to do (Eph 2:10), and if we truly have faith we will do the works God has given us to do. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. You can do all the good works in the world and without faith it will avail you nothing, you can think you have faith but if that faith doesn’t produce good works then it’s useless faith - a dead faith which is as good as no faith at all.

In the case of James, you are not reading it accurately. He is saying that faith is what produces the works—not that works produces the faith. Keep reading that chapter.

Excuse me, but I feel like I’m being patronized here, like I’m some ignoramus who hasn’t read the Bible. It is because of a careful, prayerful reading of the entire New Testament that I am Catholic now!

 

[Mea_Culpa]

If you go into most protestant churches today you will find that they all have a copy of the Bible there. That is their rule of faith. Nothing else is required.

Please cite chapter and verse where *sola scriptura *is taught in the Bible. (Before you go looking, it isn’t in there. It’s un-Scriptural.) Please give the passages from the Bible that teach *sola scriptura *before moving on to your next lie about the Catholic Church.

(Edited)

 

[Old_Scholar]

No, you won’t. No, you won’t. sadly, some do. Sometimes, because they don’t know the recipient (which is as it should be), but sometimes even when they know the recipient is sinful.I didn’t know it was sinful to be a married priests. What’s up with that accusation?

I don’t think anyone is claiming that works create faith - they may bolster our faith, but they aren’t salvatory, in and of themselves. Just as our faith is useless, if we aren’t putting it into our works.

Faith and works are two sides of the very same coin. You can’t have one without the other if you wish be justified.

St. Paul calls this the obedience of Faith.

(Edited)

I have always maintained, and still do that justification is by faith and faith alone. Once justified, your works will show when you have faith, but there is nothing else necessary for justification except faith. That’s one of the things Martin Luther attempted to get the church back to without succcess, hence the reformation.

The problem you didn’t recognize is that a priest has to take a vow of celibacy. This is difficult for married men.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Except they can’t seem to agree on what the Bible actually teaches.

Actively homosexual? Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Episcopalian “bishop” in New Hampshire? He’s no Catholic.
Again, it sounds like you’re confusing the Catholic Church with the Episcopalians. No Catholic Church will join two people of the same gender in the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.
Yes, that can happen and unfortunately does. Until priests are given the supernatural ability to tell whether or not someone is a Catholic in a state of grace, they have no choice but to give the recipient the benefit of the doubt. I’m not sure what the problem is here.

Yes, we’re justified by faith, which is dead without works. Our good works (not works of the OT Law) are what God has ordained for us to do (Eph 2:10), and if we truly have faith we will do the works God has given us to do. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. You can do all the good works in the world and without faith it will avail you nothing, you can think you have faith but if that faith doesn’t produce good works then it’s useless faith - a dead faith which is as good as no faith at all.

Excuse me, but I feel like I’m being patronized here, like I’m some ignoramus who hasn’t read the Bible. It is because of a careful, prayerful reading of the entire New Testament that I am Catholic now!

I guess we read different news bulletins about the homos. I feel certain however that we both know the RCC agreed that homosexuals could serve as priests now. I believe that happened about 2 - 3 years ago.

I am very glad to see however, that we are together with justification by faith. Paul taught that and James confirmed it. If you have faith, then works will follow but works will not justify you. If one has faith, then works will surely follow.