Authority of the Church

[Church_Militant]

What about those you can’t explain—those mentioned previously. They aren’t doctrines from Scripture, but from man alone.

So? You can believe in Sola Scriptura if you want to, but that error does not bind on Catholics.

Just because you and the majority of n-Cs like you reject history as passed down from the early church is not my fault. The evidence is there…you just discount it. IMO…your loss.

 

[Church_Militant]

I can’t say that I saw that proof.

Gee, there’s a real surprise.

Few others reading this thread will say that though.

 

[NotWorthy]

Okay, because I didn’t receive both bread and wine during my teen and early adult years til after Vatican II. So I probably misunderstand most of it. So I went to communion with the mind set that the receiving of the bread was the body and blood of Christ. Now you say both the bread and wine are both the body and blood of Christ? So could we receive only wine and that would be communion? Sorry to be such a dummy.

No, you’re not a dummy. I noticed a guy at the Feast of the Assumption Mass go right by the priest and come to receive from the Chalice. I don’t recall ever seeing that happen before. I’m not sure of the rubrics, but I don’t see anything wrong with this.

 

[Church_Militant]

Of course the Church didn’t “write” the Bible, but the various writings, teachings etc. that were available from the beginning of written church history was gathered by the Church and this is called, the BIBLE.

Actually elts it did. At least the New Testament anyway. Consider, the apostles were Catholic in belief and practice and they did in fact write the New Testament, so in fact, the Catholic Church DID write the New Testament.

 

[NoelFitz]

PD

You wrote:
*Where in the Bible does it say:
• We are saved, or justified, by faith alone? *

I wrote:
*St Paul seems to hold this view.

For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law (NRSV, Rom 3:28)*

You wrote:
Absolutely St Paul says, “…faith apart from works of law” meaning the Mosaic Law, but he never ever says “faith alone.”

I claim that Paul may have not used the words “faith alone”. He implies it strongly.

I give a few examples from the first 10 chapters of Romans.

The problem with this thread is that too many issues are being mentioned and none is discussed carefully, slowly and in detail.

It seems to essentially consist of posts from OS, which a few people disagree with.

One cannot be surprised if a Lutheran believes in his (her) Church and a Catholic in his (hers).

In school I learned that faith is a gift from God.

The Catholic faith does not depend sola scriptura. There is also tradition, almost two thousand years of development, led by the Holy Spirit. It is a vital Church always learning, always changing, but always faithful to the truth.

NRS Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.”

NRS Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

NRS Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ1 for all who believe.

NRS Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith.

NRS Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

NRS Romans 9:32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone

 

[Church_Militant]

The authority to bind and loose was given to the church and it is not what you claim it is.

In your opinion, which has no claim of infallibility, no authority, and no scripture to back it up.

And we keep the traditions passed down, so long as they do not conflict with any matter of faith and morals. The church has many traditions but no ‘sacred tradition.s’

Same response as above. There is no conflict between scripture and sacred tradition, though I’m sure you wish there was.

Christ does not give authority to forgive sins. That can be done by God alone.

Boy, here again you directly contradict the Word of God for the sake of your own pet religious tradition.

Let’s have a look at what the Bible actually says.

Can men forgive sins?

~ Only God has the power to forgive sins but He exercises this power through men.
~ Mark 2:7
~ Matthew 9:1-8
When the crowds saw it, they were afraid , and the glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

• Matthew 9:8

I do believe the bread is Christ’s body and the wine is His blood. I just don’t believe in transubstantiation as RCC members do. It is still wind and bread when you eat it but it, to a believer, is Christs blood and body. Look at it next time though and see if it is blood and flesh. Of I forgot, Catholics don’t get to fully participate in this sacrament. You rarely, if ever, get the wine…How sad!

This of course is just you running off at the mouth again and persisting in an assertion that has already been proved to be false.

You are supposedly Baptist are you not? Do you even use wine in your communion? Or is this where you try to make the case that what was wine in the New Testament was really only the equivalent to modern Welshes grape juice?

Let us know when you are ready to actually ready to discuss facts and perhaps even bring truth to this discussion. For an “Old Scholar” I’m not seeing much in your “scholarship” here.

Gotta be careful there…James 3:[1] Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.

 

[Church_Militant]

There may be a million or more there but they are not all participating in the Eucharist. Only those in the hall.

Sorry, we don’t have “halls”.

 

[elts1956]

No, you’re not a dummy. I noticed a guy at the Feast of the Assumption Mass go right by the priest and come to receive from the Chalice. I don’t recall ever seeing that happen before. I’m not sure of the rubrics, but I don’t see anything wrong with this.

Okee doke. Thanks for the explanation, but I think I will stick with both, “just to be sure”.

 

[NoelFitz]

OS
You wrote|:

It reminds me of the news story that showed the transvestite getting communion from a priest in a catholic church in San Francisco. The priest should not have given it.

This is an important question, but is another example of hopping around and briefly raising very serious issues.

Should any one person make a judgment about the soul of another? Only God knows if a person is in the state of grace or not. The judgment is God’s, not that of any human person. For a sin to be grievious the act must be grave and committed with clear knowledge and full consent.

If a transvestite were to receive communion, what person can claim that the transvestite is in sin?

As an extraordinary minister of the Eucharisat I would be very slow to refuse Communion to anyone.

 

[NoelFitz]

NW
You wrote:

I don’t recall ever seeing that happen before. I’m not sure of the rubrics, but I don’t see anything wrong with this.

The “guy” may have been a coeliac.

In our Church most of the failthful receive only under one species, but a chalice is left on the altar for those who are allergic to bread to receive from the chalice.

 

[NoelFitz]

OS
You wrote:

More than likely, Paul wrote 14 as we have in the NT.

Few would hold that Paul wrote “Hebrews”.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

“Old Scholar” has posted so many different lies about the Catholic Church in this thread, that it really makes it hard to respond to anything.

“Old Scholar” - if you have a new lie about the Catholic Church to post, why not start a new thread and then when your lie is exposed, you can then start a new thread with a new lie, instead of just using this thread as a place to post all your lies. Thanks.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Your attempts to deceive do not work with me. Neither does your straw man argument. Like Satan, you attempt to work by deception.

For instance, there was no claim that James contradicts Paul. Please tell us where that was claimed. What was and is still claimed is that James contradicts you, and the false Protestant doctrine of Faith Alone (sola fide). You have false doctrine, so, you neither know Paul nor James.

(Edited)

Catholic Church rightly teaches that God’s Grace saves us. We need faith, and faith is confirmed in works. Faith without works is dead, and how can dead faith obtain saving grace. Works without faith is useless.

Neither me, nor the Catholic Church claim that works alone we are saved. Once again, you attempt to deceive, like Satan.

Since you make these false claims, please tell us where the Church teaches that we are saved by works alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To read this as James saying that works saves you is in error. He is saying that it is the works of faith that justtifys you, not works along. Once one has faith, then works comes because of the faith.

Romans 3:28 *Therefore we conclude that a man is **justified by faith ***without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Again, no mention of works here.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

No mention of works here either.

Galatians2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

No works justify us.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The answer is Yes!

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And not works!

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

No sign of works yet.

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It can’t be put any better than that.

Romans 3:24 ***Being justified freely by his grace ***through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

No works yet…

All these say we are justified by faith and none of them say anything about anything else. The only logical conclusion is faith plus nothing. Faith produces works but works are not necessary for salvation or justification.

It is Catholic teaching that says faith alone is not enough:

“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” (Canon 9, Council of Trent).
“If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.” (Canon 14, Council of Trent).

It is obvious the church is saying that you must do more than have faith. What more do they want? They make one claim that you must join their church. They make another that says you have to partake of the Eucharist to be saved.

We teach faith alone as the Scriptures do.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

If you go into most protestant churches today you will find that they all have a copy of the Bible there. That is their rule of faith. Nothing else is required. And with the Roman Catholics you will find many churches where the bishop is homosexual, and where they perform homosexual marriages, where they offer communion to whomever comes forward, where some priests are married and some are not, etc…on and on.

Please do not post more lies about the Catholic Church until you have defended your previous lies, i.e. where in the Bible is *sola scriptura *taught? What are the names of the homosexual bishops in the Catholic Church? What is the address for the website advertising gay marriages at St. Francis Catholic Church in San Francisco? You are a liar and are using this thread to post random lies about the Catholic Church.

 

[BRB]

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To read this as James saying that works saves you is in error. He is saying that it is the works of faith that justtifys you, not works along. Once one has faith, then works comes because of the faith.

.

Yes, the two go hand-in-hand. Faithful-Works (or) Works-by-the Faithful ].

We know that ‘works w/o faith is dead’ … Christ told the Pharisees as much. And James tell us ‘faith w/o works’ is dead.

Faith always preceeds works. But, works must soon follow … to provide ‘evidence basis’ to support one’s claim of being disciple of Christ.

God’s ‘salvation gift’ is extended to man/woman on basis of our FAITH in Christ’s WORK of Calvary. We have faith …Christ has the Works.

We must ‘freely consent’ to follow Christ in discipleship to receive ‘free gift’ of Christ’s Work on Cross. Thus, we are obligated to be workers for Christ. Yet, not our ‘own works’, but the fruitful works of H.S. … enabled in us by the Trinity.

Catholics believe the above regarding what Christ/James/Paul/John, etc are teaching in Gospels & Epistles.

How does this differ from what you & your Lutheran brethren believe ?

 

[Michael_Francis]

***Fourteen (14) posts have been deleted and several more edited to remove off topic or offensive and inflammatory remarks.

There is a prescribed way of dealing with those members who post offensive remarks which violate the Forum Rules* and Banned Topics.

How To Report A Problem Post

Part of that system is not to respond to them, which only perpetuates the problematic postings and increases the work load for moderators, (like me…who get grumpy when that happens).

Please see that you all follow this guideline from now on.
Don’t make me grumpy…
You wouldn’t like me when I’m grumpy.
http://bestsmileys.com/cartoon/11.gif
MF**

 

[MDK]

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To read this as James saying that works saves you is in error. He is saying that it is the works of faith that justtifys you, not works along. Once one has faith, then works comes because of the faith.

Where do you come up with these things, as you continue to respond to statements that were not made. It reminds me of how you misinterpret Scriptures, claiming interpretations that are clearly refuted. (Edited)

You also fail to provide where I or the Catholic Church has ever taught what you falsely accuse us of.

**Your claim that Scriptures teach that we are saved by faith alone is in error. ** That’s what I have claimed all along. This is what is meant by James 2:24. This is what the Catholic Church claims.

What do you say that the Lutheran priesthood is invalid, and so the Lutheran faith cannot be called a church in the proper sense of things.

 

[MDK]

**Here is an example of your deceptiveness and attempts to manipulate. You quoted me, but added a sentence (the third paragraph) that I didn’t write. Please see directly below how you falsely quoted me, and then at the bottom of the page, my original quote showing what I actually said. Anyone can go back to my original quote to see for themselves. **

MDK;4066528:

Your attempts to deceive do not work with me. Neither does your straw man argument. Like Satan, you attempt to work by deception.

For instance, there was no claim that James contradicts Paul. Please tell us where that was claimed. What was and is still claimed is that James contradicts you, and the false Protestant doctrine of Faith Alone (sola fide). You have false doctrine, so, you neither know Paul nor James.

Many Catholics teach that James says you are saved by works, not faith.

Catholic Church rightly teaches that God’s Grace saves us. We need faith, and faith is confirmed in works. Faith without works is dead, and how can dead faith obtain saving grace. Works without faith is useless.

Neither me, nor the Catholic Church claim that works alone we are saved. Once again, you attempt to deceive, like Satan.

Since you make these false claims, please tell us where the Church teaches that we are saved by works alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To read this as James saying that works saves you is in error. He is saying that it is the works of faith that justtifys you, not works along. Once one has faith, then works comes because of the faith…

Wow, is there is nothing too low for you in attempts to deceive. You quoted me, but added the third paragraph in the quote above which I did not write. Here is my original quote shown below:

Your attempts to deceive do not work with me. Neither does your straw man argument. Like Satan, you attempt to work by deception.

For instance, there was no claim that James contradicts Paul. Please tell us where that was claimed. What was and is still claimed is that James contradicts you, and the false Protestant doctrine of Faith Alone (sola fide). You have false doctrine, so, you neither know Paul nor James.

Catholic Church rightly teaches that God’s Grace saves us. We need faith, and faith is confirmed in works. Faith without works is dead, and how can dead faith obtain saving grace. Works without faith is useless.

Neither me, nor the Catholic Church claim that works alone we are saved. Once again, you attempt to deceive, like Satan.

Since you make these false claims, please tell us where the Church teaches that we are saved by works alone.

 

[MDK]

(Edited)I have always maintained, and still do that justification is by faith and faith alone. Once justified, your works will show when you have faith, but there is nothing else necessary for justification except faith. That’s one of the things Martin Luther attempted to get the church back to without succcess, hence the reformation.

The problem you didn’t recognize is that a priest has to take a vow of celibacy. This is difficult for married men.

(Edited)

Do you believe that we are justified by faith alone, in the sense as Luther taught which for him meant that it made no difference if he did sin mortally all the time… that if you believed and just take Christ as his personal Savior, and then the merits of Christ would be thrown over you like a white cloak?

By “justification,” Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly. However, Paul spoke of Christians as a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). They are made over from scratch-- they are not at all merely the same old total corruption!

Luther’s heretical misunderstanding of Paul includes a false confidence the merits of Christ automatically apply to one who simply has faith. However, if we put Paul’s writings together, we get what William G. Most points out “If God speaks a truth, faith requires that we believe it in our minds (cf. 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Cor. 5:7). If God makes a promise, faith requires that we be confident he will keep it (cf. Gal. 5:5; Rom .5:1). If God tells us to do something, we must obey (cf. Rom .1:5; 6:16). All this is to be done in love (Gal. 5:6).” If we must obey what Christ told us, that means we must do what Christ asked… which is more than simply having faith.

Justification by faith alone is a heretical belief, and yet is one of the basic and essential Lutheran doctrines.

 

[MDK]

…It is obvious the church is saying that you must do more than have faith. What more do they want? They make one claim that you must join their church. They make another that says you have to partake of the Eucharist to be saved.

We teach faith alone as the Scriptures do.

The Catholic Church teaches that faith is necessary, but doesn’t teach the heresy of “faith alone.” We also didn’t throw out part of the OT. We also don’t teach the heresy of “sola scriptura.” We also don’t have an invalid priesthood, like the Lutheran faith. The Catholic Church was built by Christ, and not some heretic in the 1500’s like the Lutheran faith. We could go on, if you want to contrast the two faiths.