Authority of the Church

[Kendy]

Hey Everybody,

I just met with my bible study group, and told them what I was thinking, and as I anticipated, it was challenging. Mostly, they were like, how can you walking away from this loving and supportivce community? And of course, that’s the hardest thing for me.(Tomorrow, I am going to meet with my pastor .) And then there were some theological objections, some of which I felt like I could deal, but mostly, I couldn’t deal with the questions about the authority of the church. I am not fully convinced of that (and without that, why not become Anglican?) and I don’t want to proceed until I can say with confidence that I believe in the authority of the church.

As you may know, I am not looking forward to NFP and abstaining for NINE DAYS, and all other kinds of horrors, like having eight children . I might feel better about all these horrors if I was confident in the church.

So, I need you to tell me why I should believe in the church’s authority? Why should I overlook all the horrible things that the church has done throughout the centuries (and don’t pretend they haven’t!!)? How can I know that the church has never erred doctrinally or changed its teachings?

So, now, it’s time for you guys to do what you do best, which suggest 10,000 books I need to read. So, do your thing .

Kendy

 

[puzzleannie]

I am sure you will get some reaction from parents of 8+ kids who consider their children anything but horrors. If that truly is your attitude toward children perhaps some reflection, counselling and prayer on the origins of that attitude will be of benefit. Children are a gift of God and the supreme good of marriage, not horrors.

 

[Kendy]

puzzleannie:

I am sure you will get some reaction from parents of 8+ kids who consider their children anything but horrors. If that truly is your attitude toward children perhaps some reflection, counselling and prayer on the origins of that attitude will be of benefit. Children are a gift of God and the supreme good of marriage, not horrors.

Because I made such a fuss about this on a another thread, I thought I would poke fun at MYSELF by making that comment. That was my only intention, and I hope everyone will take this is the spirit that it was intended, which was a joke on silly me, for throwing a tantrum about NFP .

Anyway, I am no position to deal with my attitude about eight children. Not today. Not right now. So, I really appreciate it if we didn’t discuss that right now.

Kendy

 

[puzzleannie]

fine, so why did you bring it up as a principle part of the difficulties you are having?

 

[Kendy]

puzzleannie:

fine, so why did you bring it up as a principle part of the difficulties you are having?

Well, because it is. That I am mking fun of myself doesn’t mean that the problem has disappeared. Anyway, for a more detailed account of my issues, please refer to the thread “NFP is heresy?” .

Kendy

 

[matthias]

Authority…

I assume you have delt with the Sola Scriptura problem already…
Without the Church’s authority how would we know what is or is not scripture?

Looking at the Authority problem as it relates to Sola Scriptura shows that Sola Scriptura just doesn’t work.

Now… if you are committed to Christ and you scratch all the Sola Scriptura Churches off your list that leaves you with a very short list of Churches.

Basicly you could go Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

 

[CARose]

Kendy:

…So, I need you to tell me why I should believe in the church’s authority? …

How about because Jesus himself told us that He was going to build His Church (not Churches) on the Rock of Peter and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it. Also, we are told in 1 Timothy 3:15 that it is the Church which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

If God is Truth, and God is unchangable, and God is the Source of all that the Church teaches, then the teachings of the Church cannot Change, and the Church founded by Christ must be present without break (gates of Hell will NOT prevail, said Jesus) and the teachings if Truth are Unchanged, what other Church could it possibly be?

What other Church is One, Holy, catholic (Universal) and Apostolic?

The Catholic Church is One, in that it remains unchanged since it was founded. Those truthes taught at the beginning continue to be taught today, 2000 years later, with some greater depth of understanding, but never a teaching retracted or changed from it’s previous position in terms of negating it’s original intent.

It’s Holy in that throughout it’s history, there have been wonderful Saints from whom we can learn to better LOVE Christ.

Catholic means Universal, and the Catholic Church is found from East to West, praying unceasingly.

The Catholic Church is Apostolic in that we can trace our roots back to the Apostles without break.

You question about the dark spots in our history. Personally, I think you need to put a bit of energy into learning more about these concerns. In the light of day, you may find that much of what you think you know is actually colored by misinformation. But certainly, not everything was perfect in the past 2000 years, even in Christ’s Church. But think of the parable of the Wheat and the Weeds. Christ told us they would grow side by side, and to not pull the weeds, but to sort them after they had been harvested. This is the Church exactly. We have both sinners and saints worshipping together.

The Church is protected, but not each individual member is ensured perfection (or even anything close). We each have free will and we need to learn how to form our conscience and then act accordingly. This is as true for you and me as it has been for previous Popes and members of the clergy and those in the religious life.

As for 8 kids, my goodness, you sure are stuck on that, aren’t you!? Are you even married? Is this even something you need to be seriously worried about right now? (oops just saw your post regarding not wanting to discuss that now)

Take care and God Bless,

CARose

 

[Kendy]

CARose:

As for 8 kids, my goodness, you sure are stuck on that, aren’t you!? Are you even married? Is this even something you need to be seriously worried about right now?

Take care and God Bless,

CARose

Ok, it has come to my attention, that I am not good at joke telling. I am sorry. the eight kids comment was a joke! I am sorry. It won’t won’t happen again! Please, let it go.

Kendy

 

[CARose]

Sorry, I saw your original post, started on my long reply and only saw your response after I’d posted. Sorry wasn’t trying to rub salt in a wound! Did anything else in my post strike a cord? see:

CARose:

(oops just saw your post regarding not wanting to discuss that now)

CARose

 

[Kendy]

CARose:

The Catholic Church is One, in that it remains unchanged since it was founded. Those truthes taught at the beginning continue to be taught today, 2000 years later, with some greater depth of understanding, but never a teaching retracted or changed from it’s previous position in terms of negating it’s original intent.

It’s Holy in that throughout it’s history, there have been wonderful Saints from whom we can learn to better LOVE Christ.

Catholic means Universal, and the Catholic Church is found from East to West, praying unceasingly.

The Catholic Church is Apostolic in that we can trace our roots back to the Apostles without break.

CaRose,

I love you. You have been very helpful, but this only asserts, the thing I am asking you to prove.

CARose:

You question about the dark spots in our history. Personally, I think you need to put a bit of energy into learning more about these concerns.

CARose

I think that’s what I am trying to do .

 

[Kendy]

CARose:

Sorry, I saw your original post, started on my long reply and only saw your response after I’d posted. Sorry wasn’t trying to rub salt in a wound! Did anything else in my post strike a cord? see:

CARose

The part about Jesus not founding churches certainly rings true. I am convinced that Jesus doesn’t want all these competing versions of Christianity running around. But that’s still what we have and I am still struggling with why I should accept the catholic church’s version (for lack of a better word).

BTW, you got me good on quite a few things, but I still need to deal with this authority issue.

Kendy

 

[CARose]

I’d suggest you take some time looking through the library of great tracts / articles on the Catholic Answers home page. They’ve really done a better job then I can do in the middle of the night.

I need to call it a day. I’ve got to get up before 5 am tomorrow, to drive 2 hrs for an Honor Band my daughter’s performing in this weekend. Would you believe I still haven’t packed! Nothing like putting off what I should’a done long before now!

Who says the threads are addicting!

Night!

CARose

 

[Kendy]

matthias:

Authority…

I assume you have delt with the Sola Scriptura problem already…
Without the Church’s authority how would we know what is or is not scripture?

Looking at the Authority problem as it relates to Sola Scriptura shows that Sola Scriptura just doesn’t work.

Now… if you are committed to Christ and you scratch all the Sola Scriptura Churches off your list that leaves you with a very short list of Churches.

Basicly you could go Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

Sola scriptura has been dealt with. Can’t know from scripture, which books are scripture, and my fellow protestant (whom I love dearly; say someting mean and I will hurt you!) can’t agree on what scripture says .

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

CARose:

I’d suggest you take some time looking through the library of great tracts / articles on the Catholic Answers home page. They’ve really done a better job then I can do in the middle of the night.

I need to call it a day. I’ve got to get up before 5 am tomorrow, to drive 2 hrs for an Honor Band my daughter’s performing in this weekend. Would you believe I still haven’t packed! Nothing like putting off what I should’a done long before now!

Who says the threads are addicting!

Night!

CARose

Goodnight Dear

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

Well, if you want to learn more about the authority of the Church, you can start here: catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp but I suspect you already may have read this. I would highly recommend getting a hold of Upon this Rock by Steve Ray (available through the shop on this site!) as well as his conversion story, Crossing the Tiber. Actually, if you order them from his website (catholic-convert.com) he may give you his conversion story talk on tape like he did for me!

Other conversion stories may help with this too, such as Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic by Catholic Answers’ own Tim Staples. Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn is supposed to be great, but I haven’t read it yet.

Basically it comes down to Matthew 16:18. Steve Ray does the best job that I’ve seen in explaining this in context with the OT Scriptures as well as the rest of the NT Scriptures. When Jesus says to Peter “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven” it is a reference to Isaiah 22, where the stewerd of the king is given the keys to the kingdom and the power of binding and loosing, just as Peter is. This is a very short explanation, but if you get a copy of Upon this Rock, it goes into such great detail that it takes over 500 footnotes (which are not just citations; in fact Steve Ray uses the footnotes as most of his text) to explain everything.

There can only be one Church…and why would Christ want his Church to be broken and not united? The Catholic Church is the only Church that is truly united. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible by infallibly stating which books belonged and which didn’t. That decision HAD to be infallible, or else how could anyone ever know which books are inspired and which are not? And if THAT decision was infallible…well, where does that leave you? Jimmy Akin said that this was the final straw in his conversion–he realized that he was accepting one infallible decision by the Church (the canon of Scipture) and if they could make that infallible decision then it proved that the Catholic Church could make infallible declarations of faith and therefore had to be the One True Church of Christ.

Hope this helps!

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Kendy]

Thanks, Rand.

My pastor’s name is Rand :crying:

Kendy
Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

Well, if you want to learn more about the authority of the Church, you can start here: catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp but I suspect you already may have read this. I would highly recommend getting a hold of Upon this Rock by Steve Ray (available through the shop on this site!) as well as his conversion story, Crossing the Tiber. Actually, if you order them from his website (catholic-convert.com) he may give you his conversion story talk on tape like he did for me!

Other conversion stories may help with this too, such as Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic by Catholic Answers’ own Tim Staples. Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn is supposed to be great, but I haven’t read it yet.

Basically it comes down to Matthew 16:18. Steve Ray does the best job that I’ve seen in explaining this in context with the OT Scriptures as well as the rest of the NT Scriptures. When Jesus says to Peter “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven” it is a reference to Isaiah 22, where the stewerd of the king is given the keys to the kingdom and the power of binding and loosing, just as Peter is. This is a very short explanation, but if you get a copy of Upon this Rock, it goes into such great detail that it takes over 500 footnotes (which are not just citations; in fact Steve Ray uses the footnotes as most of his text) to explain everything.

There can only be one Church…and why would Christ want his Church to be broken and not united? The Catholic Church is the only Church that is truly united. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible by infallibly stating which books belonged and which didn’t. That decision HAD to be infallible, or else how could anyone ever know which books are inspired and which are not? And if THAT decision was infallible…well, where does that leave you? Jimmy Akin said that this was the final straw in his conversion–he realized that he was accepting one infallible decision by the Church (the canon of Scipture) and if they could make that infallible decision then it proved that the Catholic Church could make infallible declarations of faith and therefore had to be the One True Church of Christ.

Hope this helps!

In Christ,
Rand

 

[hurst]

Kendy:

So, I need you to tell me why I should believe in the church’s authority?

First of all, I welcome you in your search for truth.

I think you at least believe in the authority of Jesus Christ.

Next, the question is what the term “Church” means to Catholics. It can mean either the assembly of believers in a certain region, or the totality thereof.

The Church is also the “body of Christ”

Ephesians 1:22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church, 23 Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

The notions of Church include

1. 
   *] an external juridical organization stemming from Christ
   *] the inner attachment by grace of man with Christ, through the Holy Spirit
   
   J.A. Moehler’s definition:
   
   By the Church on earth Catholics understand the visible community of all the faithful, founded by Christ, in which are continued the activities developed by Him during His earthly life for the remission of sin and for the salvation of mankind under the direction of His Spirit until the end of the world, by means of a continuous uninterrupted Apostolate ordained by Him, and by which, in the course of time, all peoples will be brought back to God …
   
   The following passage indicates that the believers needed a leader:
   
   Matthew 9:36 And seeing the multitudes, he had compassion on them: because they were distressed, and lying like sheep that have no shepherd.
   
   This passage shows that Christ appointed Peter to the task in His place:
   
   John 21:17 … And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
   
   This passage shows that we must adhere to the shepherd of our district
   
   1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls.
   
   Jesus sent His Apostles out to do what He had done. The Church is doing that in preaching, Sacraments, and jurisdiction.
   
   That the Apostles had an office that was passed on can be seen in this passage:
   
   Acts 1:15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said: … 16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus: 17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men who have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, until the day wherein he was taken up from us, one of these must be made a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
   
   Now, we know Christ started His Church and promised that it would endure:
   
   Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
   
   He also gave it authority
   
   Luke 10:16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
   
   Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, in all nations, for his name;
   
   1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.
   
   2 Cor 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.
   
   hurst

 

[hurst]

For related considerations, here is what the Church teaches as binding upon the faithful:

1. 
   *] The Church was founded by the God-man Jesus Christ (De fide)
   *] Christ founded the Church in order to continue His work of redemption for all time (De fide)
   *] Christ gave His Church an hierarchical constitution (De fide)
   *] The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the bishops (De fide)
   *] Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the whole Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction (De fide)
   *] According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time (De fide)
   *] The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome (De fide)
   *] The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in church discipline and in the government of the Church (De fide)
   *] The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra (De fide)
   *] By virtue of Divine right the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses (De fide)
   
   *] Christ is the Head of the Church (De fide)
   *] In the final decision on doctrines concerning the faith and morals the Church is infallible (De fide)
   *] The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals (De fide)
   *] The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful (De fide)
   *] The Church founded by Christ is unique and one (De fide)
   *] The Church founded by Christ is holy (De fide)
   *] The Church founded by Christ is catholic (De fide)
   *] The Church founded by Christ is apostolic (De fide)
   *] Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation (De fide)
   
   hurst

 

[Kendy]

hurst:

He also gave it authority

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, in all nations, for his name;

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.

2 Cor 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

hurst

Hi Hurst,

Couldn’t these passages refer to believers in Christ. I always thought, he that rejected you rejected me would include me as a protestant as I tried to witness to others. Does the Holy Spirit empower all believers, catholic or not?

Certainly, there is evidence of it around us. Am I to believe that Billy Graham has not been called by God to preach the gospel? that he is, in fact, acting contrary to God’s will?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

hurst:

For related considerations, here is what the Church teaches as binding upon the faithful:

1. 
   *] *] Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation (De fide)
   
   hurst

1. 
   I thought the rcc teaches that baptized Christians outside the church could still receive salvation?
   
   Kendy