Authorship Traditions and Holy Scripture

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does anyone think it would be a positive thing if the authorship traditions concerning Holy Scripture was indicated in modern vernacular copies of the Bible as occurs in the Douay version?

I ask because of the traditions surrounding the Gospel of Matthew, which fascinates me.
 
does anyone think it would be a positive thing if the authorship traditions concerning Holy Scripture was indicated in modern vernacular copies of the Bible as occurs in the Douay version?

I ask because of the traditions surrounding the Gospel of Matthew, which fascinates me.
Im not sure what you are asking.
 
Do you mean those short introductions to the books, that tells you who wrote them?

Well for starters a lot has changed since they were written (I’m assuming by Bishop Challenor?) and now most modern Catholic Bibles employ the most up to date theories of authorship. Take the CTS New Catholic Bible, for instance. This has both a Biblical and Liturgical introduction to each book, so does explain authorship in light of the latest theories. However, most of these authorship theories are not in line with the brief introductions found in the Douay Rheims.

I raised this point the other day in another thread, because my CTS New Catholic Bible doesn’t support the claim that Peter wrote 1&2 Peter, when I first read that in its Biblical Introduction, I was like “What gives? I thought St. Peter wrote these?”

The CTS Bible explains that they could not have been written by a simple galilean fisherman. Now this really irked with me, because this is the same Peter who spoke allsorts of languages along with the other apostles on Pentecost, thanks to the Holy Spirit. I’m certain with Divine Inspiration he could have written two biblical letters of great eloquence.

But what I got from the replies I reciveved in that thread, is that it doesn’t matter who (by who I mean the Human Being, as we all know who the real ‘author’ of scripture is) wrote them in the grand scheme of things. Well, I like to think authorship still matters myself:(

Any thoughts people? Do you think traditional authorship , or authorship in general, still matters?

Matt
 
Claiming that Peter, a simple fisherman, could not have wriiten his epistles, is silly. Any number of people could have put his words into a literary form. There no reason to doubt that 1 Peter came directly from Peter. As for 2 Peter, there is some doubt, for literary and other reasons. But both episles were received by the Church as inspired and deserve the same respect.

Verbum
 
Claiming that Peter, a simple fisherman, could not have wriiten his epistles, is silly. Any number of people could have put his words into a literary form. There no reason to doubt that 1 Peter came directly from Peter. As for 2 Peter, there is some doubt, for literary and other reasons. But both episles were received by the Church as inspired and deserve the same respect.

Verbum
Re 2 Peter (and I know you’re not denying Peter’s authorship):
When people want to deny Peter’s authorship because he may not have been the one who personally wrote it, it always brings to mind when I was working. The owner would often say he wanted a letter typed up to “so and so”, saying “such and such”. I was left to compose the information in a letter. He would then proof it and note any corrections he might wish made. It went out with his signature, not mine. And that was honest - because it was his thoughts/information that was being conveyed. Happens continually in business and no one thinks of challenging the authorship.
 
I absolutely think human authorship matters, and I am constantly irritated by the “theories” of the “scholars” who spend so much time trying to debunk the idea that anyone whose name is associated with a book, especially in the New Testament, actually wrote it. As far as I’m concerned they can keep their theories. So what if someone had help from a “scribe” or secretary or whomever? The sheer arrogance of these people is what probably irritates me the most. I always read those introductions and most of the footnotes as well with large doses of salt.

Of course, these so-called scholars don’t stop with attacking traditional belief in the identity of human authors–they attack the substance of the Scriptures as well. The Holy Father’s discussion in the early pages of his marvelous book, Jesus of Nazareth, gives an excellent guide to how these modernists’ theories should be considered. In short, he says while they may present some helpful information, their critiques have to be read in the light of faith, and can’t be taken as authoritative in all things.

The whole idea of the “quelle” or “Q” document is a perfect example of the methods of which we should, IMHO, be wary. Their reasoning goes something like this: 1. The three synoptic Gospels describe many of the same events, in roughly the same order. 2. The traditionally ascribed human authors, Matthew, Mark and Luke, were most likely not living close together at the time they wrote their material, so they couldn’t have personally collaborated. 3. Therefore, they must all have been referring to some other document, the “Q”.

Of course, no one has ever found the “Q” document, nor is there any real evidence it ever existed, except the circumstantial line of inferences I just paraphrased. All of which leads many people, including me, to ask: Gee, folks, isn’t it just maybe a little bit possible that the stories are so similar because they are basically TRUE? And, you know, maybe even inspired by God? What a concept!!!
 
Claiming that Peter, a simple fisherman, could not have wriiten his epistles, is silly. Any number of people could have put his words into a literary form. There no reason to doubt that 1 Peter came directly from Peter. As for 2 Peter, there is some doubt, for literary and other reasons. But both episles were received by the Church as inspired and deserve the same respect.

Verbum
My sentiments exactly, which is why I questioned my CTS Catholic Bible. Why call a bible Catholic if its going to question the origin of its Letters, and the tradition of the Church? The only reason I can think of it because it matches modern scholarship.

Of course Peter could have written his epistles, whether he wrote them himself or dictated them, or whichever way he wanted to!
 
I absolutely think human authorship matters, and I am constantly irritated by the “theories” of the “scholars” who spend so much time trying to debunk the idea that anyone whose name is associated with a book, especially in the New Testament, actually wrote it. As far as I’m concerned they can keep their theories. So what if someone had help from a “scribe” or secretary or whomever? The sheer arrogance of these people is what probably irritates me the most. I always read those introductions and most of the footnotes as well with large doses of salt.

Of course, these so-called scholars don’t stop with attacking traditional belief in the identity of human authors–they attack the substance of the Scriptures as well. The Holy Father’s discussion in the early pages of his marvelous book, Jesus of Nazareth, gives an excellent guide to how these modernists’ theories should be considered. In short, he says while they may present some helpful information, their critiques have to be read in the light of faith, and can’t be taken as authoritative in all things.

The whole idea of the “quelle” or “Q” document is a perfect example of the methods of which we should, IMHO, be wary. Their reasoning goes something like this: 1. The three synoptic Gospels describe many of the same events, in roughly the same order. 2. The traditionally ascribed human authors, Matthew, Mark and Luke, were most likely not living close together at the time they wrote their material, so they couldn’t have personally collaborated. 3. Therefore, they must all have been referring to some other document, the “Q”.

Of course, no one has ever found the “Q” document, nor is there any real evidence it ever existed, except the circumstantial line of inferences I just paraphrased. All of which leads many people, including me, to ask: Gee, folks, isn’t it just maybe a little bit possible that the stories are so similar because they are basically TRUE? And, you know, maybe even inspired by God? What a concept!!!
I am quite persuaded by the majority of contemporary scholars regarding their thoughts on the origins of Scripture.

I don’t think they are arrogant.
I don’t think they attack the substance of Scripture.
Your description of the hypothetical “Q” document is incorrect, at least from the majority scholarship point of view (I’m not aware of fringe theories that you may be referring to, sorry).
All of this in no way makes me believe less that the Scriptures are true and inspired. Which I do.

So…after reading this, I’m sorry, but…what?
 
I am quite persuaded by the majority of contemporary scholars regarding their thoughts on the origins of Scripture.

I don’t think they are arrogant.
I don’t think they attack the substance of Scripture.
Your description of the hypothetical “Q” document is incorrect, at least from the majority scholarship point of view (I’m not aware of fringe theories that you may be referring to, sorry).
All of this in no way makes me believe less that the Scriptures are true and inspired. Which I do.

So…after reading this, I’m sorry, but…what?
I don’t know, I was about to make a similar observation. I think the discussion of authorship is fascinating. I know that even the earliest of the Church Fathers engaged in speculation about who had written what, precisely. I know that it was absolutely the practice in that time (and for centuries to come) for material compiled by the disciples/students of a well-known person to be presented as “by” that person - with no suggestion or concern about “authenticity.” The insistence that the traditional authors have to have been the ones who actually put stylus to wax or brush to papyrus or whatever is glossed by the modern notion of “authorship,” a notion unfamiliar to the ancients.

And I am not at all interested in challenging the inspiration or authority of the books in question. I find it no more difficult (or confidence-inspiring) to believe that the Holy Spirit guided the “compilers” than that the Holy Spirit guided the Fathers in the process of canon development.

I do know that there are Biblical Scholars who do not regard the Bible as the inspired Word of God. But there are others, even among those who do not accept the “traditional authors” as definitive, who are faithful and orthodox. Please don’t jump to conclusions.

To quote the notes in the Oxford Annotated Bible, which happens to be the version closest to my dining room table this morning: “the use of an apostle’s name in reasserting his teaching was not regarded as dishonest but merely a way of reminding the church of what it had received from God through that apostle.”

The area that concerns me most in this discussion is the tendency to think that the extra-biblical traditions around the Scriptures are as important as the Scriptures themselves and therefore to find discussion about or even suggested changes to those traditions to be a threat to faith (I’m thinking here not only of traditional ascription but of the chapter/verse numbers, order of books within the volume, names of the books and other such.)
 
I think it would be very positive if the traditional authorship information was avalible in a short introduction including the modern thinking, allowing people to understand what the Church tradition says, and what modern biblical scholarship says, at the same time.

This gives a wider more encompassing scope to the reader.

Alot of Catholics, I’m willing to bet, do not know the traditional Matthew authorship tradition of it having indeed been composed first in Hebrew. Karl Keating often asserts it is so, and he’s right. I only found out because of my Douay Rheims and it’s notes, and was quite surprised actually.
 
Alot of Catholics, I’m willing to bet, do not know the traditional Matthew authorship tradition of it having indeed been composed first in Hebrew. Karl Keating often asserts it is so, and he’s right. I only found out because of my Douay Rheims and it’s notes, and was quite surprised actually.
The Catholic Church does not teach that Matthew’s Gospel was originally written in Hebrew. Anyone is free to believe it if they want to, but it’s not Church teaching.

Yes, there is a certain tradition of claiming that, but most scholars today would disagree.
 
I am quite persuaded by the majority of contemporary scholars regarding their thoughts on the origins of Scripture.
diggerdomer, Hi. Your statement here baffles me since biblical scholars can hardly seem to agree on anything!. Which scholars do you mean? 🤷

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
diggerdomer, Hi. Your statement here baffles me since biblical scholars can hardly seem to agree on anything!. Which scholars do you mean? 🤷

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
The ones that contribute to well-known Commentaries, e.g. New Jerome Biblical Commentary, Harper’s, Collegeville. And so on.
 
The Catholic Church does not teach that Matthew’s Gospel was originally written in Hebrew. Anyone is free to believe it if they want to, but it’s not Church teaching.

Yes, there is a certain tradition of claiming that, but most scholars today would disagree.
Incorrect in that this is indeed the Church’s authorship tradition as apologist Karl Keating has correctly asserted many times. The Pontifical Biblical Commission can be consulted for the church’s opinion on this, and it supports the traditional view.
However it is not an “essential” tradition for your salvation, and like most authorship traditions, especially the authoring tradition concerning the book of Apocalypse, is clearly therefore allowed to be debated, and has been by modern day scholars.
 
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