Ave maria

[filius_Immacula]

Is schuberts or even Rachmaninoff. Ave maria EVA used in the divine liturgy

 

[petra22]

Good question! I wonder…

 

[Vico]

Is schuberts or even Rachmaninoff. Ave maria EVA used in the divine liturgy

In the tradition of Constantinople, no musical instruments are used in the Divine Liturgy.

There are vocal arrangements of the Akathist Hymn to the Holy Virgin, which is apart from the Divine Liturgy usually during Lent.

 

[Errham]

As Vivo said, there are no musical instruments used in Eastern Divine Liturgies. Everything is done a Capella. Traditional chant is optimally used, but this may no be possible depending on the choir’s abilities. The general guideline however is to keep things as traditional as possible, so you won’t find any modern musical performances like you will in the Latin Rite.

 

[rowlands]

1. There are some differences in the wording of this hymn between the Catholic and Orthodox usages. For this reason alone the Schubert setting could not be used at an Orthodox service (the words could be sung elsewhere unaccompanied by instruments, though it might sound a bit bare).
2. The proper place for the singing of ‘Ave, Maria’ is at the end of vespers when it is served as part of the all-night vigil service, at the artoklasia… Apart from great feasts Russian usage is to celebrate the all-night vigil also every Saturday evening even though the service is abbreviated to about two hours.
3. Rachmaninoff set all the major hymns of the vigil service, including this hymn, using mainly traditional chants and his own harmonisations and in accordance with Russian usage.
4. Despite its apparent complexities and the fact that the whole vigil is often performed as a concert piece (particularly in the ‘West’) he composed the vigil settings for a fairly average church choir - Russian singing was highly accomplished at that time.
5. Naturally he did not include instruments.
6. There is no prohibition on the use of Rachmaninoff’s work. If I recall rightly the ‘Ave, Maria’ does call for a low B flat in the bass line but that can be worked around if here is no bass singer who can reach down that low.
7. The great Constantinopolitan chanter and composer Petros Bereketis set this hymn using all eight Byzantine modes; his setting lasts almost one hour - specifically to fulfil the needs of an ‘all-night’ service!

 

[filius_Immacula]

1. There are some differences in the wording of this hymn between the Catholic and Orthodox usages. For this reason alone the Schubert setting could not be used at an Orthodox service (the words could be sung elsewhere unaccompanied by instruments, though it might sound a bit bare).
2. The proper place for the singing of ‘Ave, Maria’ is at the end of vespers when it is served as part of the all-night vigil service, at the artoklasia… Apart from great feasts Russian usage is to celebrate the all-night vigil also every Saturday evening even though the service is abbreviated to about two hours.
3. Rachmaninoff set all the major hymns of the vigil service, including this hymn, using mainly traditional chants and his own harmonisations and in accordance with Russian usage.
4. Despite its apparent complexities and the fact that the whole vigil is often performed as a concert piece (particularly in the ‘West’) he composed the vigil settings for a fairly average church choir - Russian singing was highly accomplished at that time.
5. Naturally he did not include instruments.
6. There is no prohibition on the use of Rachmaninoff’s work. If I recall rightly the ‘Ave, Maria’ does call for a low B flat in the bass line but that can be worked around if here is no bass singer who can reach down that low.
7. The great Constantinopolitan chanter and composer Petros Bereketis set this hymn using all eight Byzantine modes; his setting lasts almost one hour - specifically to fulfil the needs of an ‘all-night’ service!

Well i know agni parthene and kyrie eleison are polyphnic and are sung sometimes isntead of chanted, could this not be used for schubert’s piece? Im sure it sounds good acapella

 

[rowlands]

But the actual text of the hymn as set by Schubert is quite different from that used by the Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox churches and so cannot/would not be used by them liturgically.

Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox text
Mother of God and Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

Latin Catholic text (as used by Schubert)
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death. Amen.

The hymn Agni Parthene (which is a recent paraliturgical composition) is not sung polyphonically, it is monophonic with an ison. As for ‘Kyrie eleison’, in the eastern rites, there are thousands of settings ranging from monophonic to polyphonic, simple to extreme kitsch.

No doubt Schubert’s setting of the Latin hymn could be arranged to be sung *a capella *if any one so wished.

 

[5Loaves]

Hail, O Virgin, Mother of God/ Богородице, Дево/ Bogoroditse Djevo can be sung in place of “It is truly meet” in DL, or at the end of Vespers. Rachmaninoff’s Bogoroditse Djevo could be used.

When Rachmaninoff composed a Divine Liturgy it was not approved to be sung in church services because among other things it included female voices.

 

[filius_Immacula]

Hail, O Virgin, Mother of God/ Богородице, Дево/ Bogoroditse Djevo can be sung in place of “It is truly meet” in DL, or at the end of Vespers. Rachmaninoff’s Bogoroditse Djevo could be used.

When Rachmaninoff composed a Divine Liturgy it was not approved to be sung in church services because among other things it included female voices.

Ive seen women in orthodox choirs for DL

 

[filius_Immacula]

But the actual text of the hymn as set by Schubert is quite different from that used by the Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox churches and so cannot/would not be used by them liturgically.

Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox text
Mother of God and Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

Latin Catholic text (as used by Schubert)
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death. Amen.

The hymn Agni Parthene (which is a recent paraliturgical composition) is not sung polyphonically, it is monophonic with an ison. As for ‘Kyrie eleison’, in the eastern rites, there are thousands of settings ranging from monophonic to polyphonic, simple to extreme kitsch.

No doubt Schubert’s setting of the Latin hymn could be arranged to be sung *a capella *if any one so wished.

Surely, sinve both hail marys are devotional, and not ex ecclesia prayers, i see no reason why schuberts hymn absolutely coud not be used.

 

[rowlands]

Surely, sinve both hail marys are devotional, and not ex ecclesia prayers, i see no reason why schuberts hymn absolutely coud not be used.

The Church tells us what to do and we do it.

The Church has told us to sing a certain hymn at a certain time and place (and in a certain mode or tone) in the service, using a text created and approved by the Church and that is what we do. Simple.

If we decide to sing something else to suit our own whims we are not being obedient and are even setting ourselves against the Church. Other members of the congregation would ask questions and raise objections.

What would happen in a Latin Mass if the priest proclaimed ‘Behold the Lamb of God…’ and the people responded by singing ‘Jesus wants me for a sunbeam’? The Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, have their own customs and traditions and no need whatsoever to import variants from other traditions for whatever reason.

I think this discussion has now ‘passed its sell-by date’.

 

[filius_Immacula]

The Church tells us what to do and we do it.

The Church has told us to sing a certain hymn at a certain time and place (and in a certain mode or tone) in the service, using a text created and approved by the Church and that is what we do. Simple.

If we decide to sing something else to suit our own whims we are not being obedient and are even setting ourselves against the Church. Other members of the congregation would ask questions and raise objections.

What would happen in a Latin Mass if the priest proclaimed ‘Behold the Lamb of God…’ and the people responded by singing ‘Jesus wants me for a sunbeam’? The Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, have their own customs and traditions and no need whatsoever to import variants from other traditions for whatever reason.

I think this discussion has now ‘passed its sell-by date’.

If your implying that im trying to sell an odea, youve got another thing coming, i didnt know abouylt your liturgy and how songs are usedn i dont know how fluod it is with its songs, i was asking with the mnd of a curous student not some salesguy

 

[filius_Immacula]

So, just tolarify, does this mean that eastern chirches dont have music directors, or do they jist have pre prescribed songs?

 

[Vico]

So, just tolarify, does this mean that eastern chirches dont have music directors, or do they jist have pre prescribed songs?

There is a cantor that leads the congregation in the liturgical chant, and also there are some hymns at the beginning, communion, and end of the Divine Liturgy that may be chosen. Since there are various styles of chant, the form will vary per eastern Catholic Church.

 

[filius_Immacula]

There is a cantor that leads the congregation in the liturgical chant, and also there are some hymns at the beginning, communion, and end of the Divine Liturgy that may be chosen. Since there are various styles of chant, the form will vary per eastern Catholic Church.

Oh so it’s like the Latin rite where these things can be chosen but must fit the guidelines for the occasion?

 

[5Loaves]

**When Rachmaninoff composed a Divine Liturgy it was not approved **to be sung in church services because among other things it included female voices.
filius Immacula;13082107:

Ive seen women in orthodox choirs for DL

As I said, when he composed it, July, 1910, it was not approved to be sung in church services. In fact it fell into obscurity. Now it is sung nearly every year in concert by various choirs, as a concert not as Liturgy.

You may see women in the kliros now. There are places where the choir remains all male.

 

[5Loaves]

Oh so it’s like the Latin rite where these things can be chosen but must fit the guidelines for the occasion?

Not really. What is prayed in the Divine Liturgy is spelled out in the Typicon. Whether those prayers are sung, or spoken, in Greek, or English, or some other language is a choice made by the clergy. The prayers and the tones are specified.

 

[filius_Immacula]

Not really. What is prayed in the Divine Liturgy is spelled out in the Typicon. Whether those prayers are sung, or spoken, in Greek, or English, or some other language is a choice made by the clergy. The prayers and the tones are specified.

Ok, dont think me a dumb ox, but i just need some final ckarifucation, so please tell me if hs is wron ir not. In thelatin rite, songs are chosen at will and are at the discrecio of the pastor or music director. But in the eastern churches, there is no leeway whatsoever and it is a specific song for a specific time period. No exceptions! Correct?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Ok, dont think me a dumb ox, but i just need some final ckarifucation, so please tell me if hs is wron ir not. In thelatin rite, songs are chosen at will and are at the discrecio of the pastor or music director. But in the eastern churches, there is no leeway whatsoever and it is a specific song for a specific time period. No exceptions! Correct?

The short answer is yes. In the sense that I think you are asking (in other words if a cantor could just arbitrarily insert Schubert’s Ave Maria into the liturgy) that is not possible. If I did that where I cantor, I would probably be asked to resign for essentially profaning the liturgy with secular music.

The long answer is Basically 99% of the time, yes. Sometimes, there are exceptions for things like a parish’s patronal feast, where even if the feast is a simple commemoration, it can be “upgraded” to a vigil, but only in specific parishes named after that saint. So for example, in Houston, there is a church dedicated to St. Jonah of Manchuria, one of only two in the world, I believe. The feast day of St. Jonah (October 7th) coincides with the feast day of Ss. Sergius and Bacchus, two relatively major saints. Hymns for St. Jonah have been composed in both English and Slavonic (and approved by ROCOR), but they would only ever be used at the two churches dedicated to St. Jonah. On Oct. 7th, other Orthodox parishes would normally use the hymns for Ss. Sergius and Bacchus as prescribed by the Typikon. But even in exceptional cases where established local customs differ slightly from usual practice, all of the hymns and music composed must be in the style of preexistent hymns. So the hymns must all fit into certain preestablished genres of hymns (kontakia, apolytikia, troparia, stichera, doxastica, prosomoia, idiomela, etc.,) so that they will fit into the established structure of services (in other words, you can’t use texts modeled after stichera in a canon or texts modeled after apolytikia after Lord I Have Cried), and the music for said hymns must be composed according to one of the eight musical modes, preserving the unique melodic structure of the chosen mode. Since Schubert’s Ave Maria does not match the latter criterion (being composed according to one of the eight ecclesiastical modes of music), it would be considered not particularly suitable for worship.

 

[Vico]

Oh so it’s like the Latin rite where these things can be chosen but must fit the guidelines for the occasion?

What may have variable wording at the Divine Liturgy is the communion hymn, and those hymns at the entrance and after the final blessing, of the Divine Liturgy.

For some chants there are different melodies that may be chosen, but the words remain fixed. The Divine Liturgy may be one of several in the Byzantine tradition:

• Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
• Divine Liturgy of St. Basil The Great
• Divine Liturgy of St. James
• Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
• Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil The Great
• The Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts
• Archiraticon (Hierarchical Divine Liturgy - Bishop is celebrant)

Also there are other non-eucharistic liturgies, the main ones are:

• Orthros (Matins)
• Great Vespers
• Daily Vespers