Avoid people to become holy?

[Madeline1994]

I am wondering if sometimes it is better to avoid people in certain contexts?

One example is friendship.

Of all my friends, I am the only Catholic one. The rest have belief in God, but are not Catholic.

While they will listen to what I believe, I do not feel they have any deep desire to become holy and they do not understand my desire very well. As my one friend put it, “you have to be too good to become a saint.” (Which to me means they want to cling to some evil still, which makes no sense.)

I like being around them but I am starting to wonder if I should stop being friends with them. There is always a lot of drama. They all seem to have a lot of problems. One is always angry at someone - the other is divorced and always angry at his wife and women in general and is very lustful towards women…it is a very fun at times but also very dysfunctional environment which they all readily admit to.

Another example is family. My family is very clingy. If I spend one day a week with them and talk on the phone a few times during the week it is not enough. I am criticized for not spending enough time with them. When I do spend time, there is always some needy drama that unfolds where I am not meeting their needs enough. But the bottom line is that I am not comfortable around my family - there was a lot of abuse in the past and I will never have a real desire to be with them all the time and be happy. One day a week can be challenging enough.

I am starting to wonder if all of this can affect ones spiritual life negatively.

I find that while these people can bring good things into my life, they also can bring a lot of turbulance into it as well. I loose my peace.

I am starting to think life as a hermit would be a much better option.

Is there any point where it may be better to move far away in order to extract certain people from your life and protect your spiritual life? Or is that wrong? Can keeping certain people in your life, however good they may be on one hand, be detrimental to your spiritual life?

I am really starting to believe that people who become hermits are very smart!

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Begin to pray that God will bring into your life a few friends who are also seeking to follow Him and who will be able to support you in this. Try to find people like this in your parish or nearby if possible by joining a prayer group, youth group, bible study, or any group focused on helping others.

You can distance yourself from friends and family members who affect you negatively without turning your back on them completely. And, as you are experiencing, some relationships can be destructive and sometimes you need to end those relationships. Pray for guidance in this. Even ask your guardian angel to speak to the guardian angel of the person who is causing you a problem. That sometimes helps.

What you’re describing is, I think, a fairly common problem. Hermits have another whole set of different problems.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I am wondering if sometimes it is better to avoid people in certain contexts?

One example is friendship.

Of all my friends, I am the only Catholic one. The rest have belief in God, but are not Catholic.

While they will listen to what I believe, I do not feel they have any deep desire to become holy and they do not understand my desire very well. As my one friend put it, “you have to be too good to become a saint.” (Which to me means they want to cling to some evil still, which makes no sense.)

I like being around them but I am starting to wonder if I should stop being friends with them. There is always a lot of drama. They all seem to have a lot of problems. One is always angry at someone - the other is divorced and always angry at his wife and women in general and is very lustful towards women…it is a very fun at times but also very dysfunctional environment which they all readily admit to.

Another example is family. My family is very clingy. If I spend one day a week with them and talk on the phone a few times during the week it is not enough. I am criticized for not spending enough time with them. When I do spend time, there is always some needy drama that unfolds where I am not meeting their needs enough. But the bottom line is that I am not comfortable around my family - there was a lot of abuse in the past and I will never have a real desire to be with them all the time and be happy. One day a week can be challenging enough.

I am starting to wonder if all of this can affect ones spiritual life negatively.

I find that while these people can bring good things into my life, they also can bring a lot of turbulance into it as well. I loose my peace.

I am starting to think life as a hermit would be a much better option.

Is there any point where it may be better to move far away in order to extract certain people from your life and protect your spiritual life? Or is that wrong? Can keeping certain people in your life, however good they may be on one hand, be detrimental to your spiritual life?

I am really starting to believe that people who become hermits are very smart!

My parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts are all gone. Maybe you should thank God every day for a family who’s still there and who still wants to be with you.

 

[trials]

I wish it was that easy. I seriously considered emigrating in the past - yes, emigrating - to get away from family, past memories, dramas similar to the ones you describe and just general stress I could do without. Every time my spiritual life seemed to be enjoying a brief peaceful interlude, I could almost guarantee that either in-laws, parents or “friends” would begin imposing on my life and start some ball of stress rolling to knock me off my course.

I haven’t emigrated. Have you heard of saintmakers? People put on this Earth to really put you to the test. Can you be the gentle, patient, humble one in the face of such adversity? And these events, as unwelcome as they are, can actually strengthen your relationship with God if dealt with in the right way and if at each hurdle you run into His arms praying for guidance.

If a friendship is really driving you off course and leading you into sin or situations of sin, however, then you do need to move away from it, that would be different to the usual mixing with people of all types, some pleasant, some not so pleasant, which is part of everyday life.

Other than that, maybe you do have a genuine calling to become a hermit. It shouldn’t be seen as an escape route from reality however, it is anything but. It is a very particular calling to silence and absolute focus on one’s relationship with God, essentially sacrificing your entire life and being for Him, so not an escape route. If you feel you want to find out more, there is usually some sort of retreat program specifically for those trying out their vocations in silent orders - Carthusians for example.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Somewhere I read, " we go into solitude not to live seperate from men, but to learn how to live with them."

I don’t know if this helps, but its helped me over the years.

Jim

 

[jimcav]

The holier you become, the less you will want to be around these people.

It was that way for the saints and the holy and it has been that way for me as I try to walk (however imperfectly)in their path. I had the same group of friends as you describe, but the deeper I got into my faith and the “saintlier” I tried to live, the more I found myself wanting to be by myself with God or with others like me. I believe the same will be for you as you embark on your journey to sainthood…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

But what if these people NEED someone like the OP in their lives? We never know when something we do or say will have a positive influence on those desperately seeking God (whether they realize it or not).

 

[the_phoenix]

But what if these people NEED someone like the OP in their lives? We never know when something we do or say will have a positive influence on those desperately seeking God (whether they realize it or not).

This is a balance I’m trying to find when it comes to certain people.
Better to be there, or better to not be there?
For myself, for the other adults, for the children.
Definitely a matter for prayerful discernment.
In some situations in particular, praying to St. Michael can help tremendously.

 

[jimcav]

But what if these people NEED someone like the OP in their lives? We never know when something we do or say will have a positive influence on those desperately seeking God (whether they realize it or not).

Now I’m not saying to abandon everyone in your life, I’m just saying things will be different the holier you get.

They will need you, but they will likely reject the new you and your message, Not in overt ways, but likely subtle ways. The new you will probably make your friends abit uncomfortable too. It’s nice to think that you will be able to convert your friends, but the chances are you will not be able to. And if you are living a life of holiness, it’s going to be very likely that your old friends antics, habits and lifestyle that you once found fun and endearing, will now be a turnoff and a hindrance to your walk to sainthood.

This has been my experience, but maybe for you it will be different. I hope it is and you can convert the whole world!

 

[Snugglebugmom]

If it is about friends that lead you into sin or near-occasion of sin on a regular basis, I would distance myself. I’d pray for them, but not let them be part of my daily life anymore.
As for family, I would keep on doing what you are doing. Keep in touch, see them regularly, pray for them, but try and build in an emotional distance. Do not let yourself get sucked into their drama. You can be “in” your family but not “of” your family, so to speak… the same way we are called to be in the world, but not of the world. Does that make sense?

 

[Madeline1994]

Thank you to everyone for the replies I really appreciate it.

I think the biggest thing that has been bothering me is that I sense very subtle changes in myself after I am around them.

For example, I go over to my friends house and all is fine at first. And for awhile the conversation is good - but after awhile it turns to secular topics and then complaints about people that we know, and a lot of bittermess starts seeping into the conversation. I know she is very frustrated with a lot of things in her life. And I start seeing the negative as well and then it is like my mind drops into this place where it is just thinking about things that are not that important.

Like tonight - my mother and I went for a walk - she started talking about someone I know - and I literally felt like I wanted to pull my hair out because I could not stand listening to her. Everything seemed very bitter to me - whereas to someone else it would just have been conversation to me every word seemed caustic - like it was grating against my emotions. Like someone was rubbing sandpaper against an open wound. I could not stand it. But then she goes on and on… and maybe I can get her to talk about something substantial and meaningful but not for long…and besides, she gets irritated and says all I want to do is talk about God and religion, so soon I am participating in it…

And I just notice so many subtle things about interacting with people. Like my friends who I have always loved being around - I go over there and more and more I just see like this swirl of problems and negativity around them - and I never used to before. I loved being around them but more and more I just see people with very deep problems that are not being resolved but are just being allowed to fester. And I know everyone has problems so I do not know if I am judging and being a jerk or maybe I am just sensing things I did not before.

And I wonder if all this negative “energy” that is around them is the subtlty that I am picking up on that in very small and subtle ways creeps into my life and leads me away from where I want to be. Like Anne Catherine Emmerich I once read where she said that she could see like dark energy eminating from certain places and people - that stuff has to affect a person. Even if in very subtle ways.

And I think of how Teresa of Avila used to say she did not want her daughters to deal with worldly people very much for the sake of their souls. And I know I am not a nun, but then I think she must have said that for a reason. There are things that can slip in that she must have wanted to protect them against.

I just wonder if their presence makes me take a few steps forward when I am away and then four steps back when I am near them. Not because they are all bad - but because there are subtleties to human interactions that have to do with what we cannot see or even feel necessarily but that is there all the same.

Like the little boy in the Charlie Brown cartoon with the cloud floating around him all the time - does being around people make you pick up other peoples spiritual “dust” so to speak? And the more you are there, the more the dust builds - so slowly and subtly, but eventually enough to be quite dusty?

 

[Sanctifiable]

This is a great topic and I can relate to your pain.

 

[jimcav]

Thank you to everyone for the replies I really appreciate it.

I think the biggest thing that has been bothering me is that I sense very subtle changes in myself after I am around them.

For example, I go over to my friends house and all is fine at first. And for awhile the conversation is good - but after awhile it turns to secular topics and then complaints about people that we know, and a lot of bittermess starts seeping into the conversation. I know she is very frustrated with a lot of things in her life. And I start seeing the negative as well and then it is like my mind drops into this place where it is just thinking about things that are not that important.

Like tonight - my mother and I went for a walk - she started talking about someone I know - and I literally felt like I wanted to pull my hair out because I could not stand listening to her. Everything seemed very bitter to me - whereas to someone else it would just have been conversation to me every word seemed caustic - like it was grating against my emotions. Like someone was rubbing sandpaper against an open wound. I could not stand it. But then she goes on and on… and maybe I can get her to talk about something substantial and meaningful but not for long…and besides, she gets irritated and says all I want to do is talk about God and religion, so soon I am participating in it…

And I just notice so many subtle things about interacting with people. Like my friends who I have always loved being around - I go over there and more and more I just see like this swirl of problems and negativity around them - and I never used to before. I loved being around them but more and more I just see people with very deep problems that are not being resolved but are just being allowed to fester. And I know everyone has problems so I do not know if I am judging and being a jerk or maybe I am just sensing things I did not before.

And I wonder if all this negative “energy” that is around them is the subtlty that I am picking up on that in very small and subtle ways creeps into my life and leads me away from where I want to be. Like Anne Catherine Emmerich I once read where she said that she could see like dark energy eminating from certain places and people - that stuff has to affect a person. Even if in very subtle ways.

And I think of how Teresa of Avila used to say she did not want her daughters to deal with worldly people very much for the sake of their souls. And I know I am not a nun, but then I think she must have said that for a reason. There are things that can slip in that she must have wanted to protect them against.

I just wonder if their presence makes me take a few steps forward when I am away and then four steps back when I am near them. Not because they are all bad - but because there are subtleties to human interactions that have to do with what we cannot see or even feel necessarily but that is there all the same.

Like the little boy in the Charlie Brown cartoon with the cloud floating around him all the time - does being around people make you pick up other peoples spiritual “dust” so to speak? And the more you are there, the more the dust builds - so slowly and subtly, but eventually enough to be quite dusty?

Smile, you are on the journey to sainthood!

What you are experiencing is what I have experienced in my life and pretty much what the saints in their jouney to holiness have experienced in their lives. I am certainly not a saint, but as I tried to convey in my last two posts, when you begin the walk of the saints and try, however imperfectly to live out the life of a saint, that these things you are experiencing would happen. God is taking hold of your heart now. He is now the most important thing to you and it is a beautiful thing. As you can see, it is also life changing. Things that seemed so important and so normal before your journey to God, now seem to be a drag on your life and some of the behavior, speech and actions of your friends now become almost shocking to you. You begin to wonder how you could have ever found any of it interesting!

And if your like me, you will be asking God to forgive you for not having Him in your heart all your life like you do now. You will chastise yourself for all the years wasted on such secular non-sense when you could have and should have spent that time with God.

God bless you on your journey to holiness!

 

[colmcille1]

Smile, you are on the journey to sainthood!

What you are experiencing is what I have experienced in my life and pretty much what the saints in their jouney to holiness have experienced in their lives. I am certainly not a saint, but as I tried to convey in my last two posts, when you begin the walk of the saints and try, however imperfectly to live out the life of a saint, that these things you are experiencing would happen. God is taking hold of your heart now. He is now the most important thing to you and it is a beautiful thing. As you can see, it is also life changing. Things that seemed so important and so normal before your journey to God, now seem to be a drag on your life and some of the behavior, speech and actions of your friends now become almost shocking to you. You begin to wonder how you could have ever found any of it interesting!

And if your like me, you will be asking God to forgive you for not having Him in your heart all your life like you do now. You will chastise yourself for all the years wasted on such secular non-sense when you could have and should have spent that time with God.

God bless you on your journey to holiness!

Hi jimcav,
While I agree wholeheartedly with most of your post, I feel that one part is perhaps too severe. The years have not really been wasted and I do not think anyone ought to beat him or herself up because of this apparent squandering. God, in His infinite patience, waits for all of us and, with His grace, we will respond in due course. While we may have turned our back on Him for many many years, He was always and ever steadfastly with us. Our true forever friend.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[jimcav]

Hi jimcav,
While I agree wholeheartedly with most of your post, I feel that one part is perhaps too severe. The years have not really been wasted and I do not think anyone ought to beat him or herself up because of this apparent squandering. God, in His infinite patience, waits for all of us and, with His grace, we will respond in due course. While we may have turned our back on Him for many many years, He was always and ever steadfastly with us. Our true forever friend.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

Yes, deep down I know you are right about that.

I guess I just cannot stop thinking of where I would be on my faith journey if I had never left His side. I think I would be so much farther down the road than I am now. And I cannot sometimes help but feel alittle hypocritical, because at one time I was the “worldly” guy that I now preach to others that they shouldn’t be. I would be alot more comfortable preaching had I always been a holier man. But I also know that many saints only came back to God later in their lives to, so they give me comfort and confidence. Thank God and our Church for giving us the saints! They are a wealth of knowledge and strength for us seeking the holy life…

Thank you Colmcille!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Thank you to everyone for the replies I really appreciate it.

I think the biggest thing that has been bothering me is that I sense very subtle changes in myself after I am around them.

For example, I go over to my friends house and all is fine at first. And for awhile the conversation is good - but after awhile it turns to secular topics and then complaints about people that we know, and a lot of bittermess starts seeping into the conversation. I know she is very frustrated with a lot of things in her life. And I start seeing the negative as well and then it is like my mind drops into this place where it is just thinking about things that are not that important.

Like tonight - my mother and I went for a walk - she started talking about someone I know - and I literally felt like I wanted to pull my hair out because I could not stand listening to her. Everything seemed very bitter to me - whereas to someone else it would just have been conversation to me every word seemed caustic - like it was grating against my emotions. Like someone was rubbing sandpaper against an open wound. I could not stand it. But then she goes on and on… and maybe I can get her to talk about something substantial and meaningful but not for long…and besides, she gets irritated and says all I want to do is talk about God and religion, so soon I am participating in it…

And I just notice so many subtle things about interacting with people. Like my friends who I have always loved being around - I go over there and more and more I just see like this swirl of problems and negativity around them - and I never used to before. I loved being around them but more and more I just see people with very deep problems that are not being resolved but are just being allowed to fester. And I know everyone has problems so I do not know if I am judging and being a jerk or maybe I am just sensing things I did not before.

And I wonder if all this negative “energy” that is around them is the subtlty that I am picking up on that in very small and subtle ways creeps into my life and leads me away from where I want to be. Like Anne Catherine Emmerich I once read where she said that she could see like dark energy eminating from certain places and people - that stuff has to affect a person. Even if in very subtle ways.

And I think of how Teresa of Avila used to say she did not want her daughters to deal with worldly people very much for the sake of their souls. And I know I am not a nun, but then I think she must have said that for a reason. There are things that can slip in that she must have wanted to protect them against.

I just wonder if their presence makes me take a few steps forward when I am away and then four steps back when I am near them. Not because they are all bad - but because there are subtleties to human interactions that have to do with what we cannot see or even feel necessarily but that is there all the same.

Like the little boy in the Charlie Brown cartoon with the cloud floating around him all the time - does being around people make you pick up other peoples spiritual “dust” so to speak? And the more you are there, the more the dust builds - so slowly and subtly, but eventually enough to be quite dusty?

I get it—have been through similar things with my own friends and family.

It’s perfectly legitimate to stop them (gently and charitably) and ask that they count their blessings.

It doesn’t do them any good to complain like that, and it doesn’t do you any good to listen.

You can suggest they talk to a priest. Even if they aren’t Catholic, I think a priest would be willing to listen and offer the level of help you can’t.

And Charlie Brown may have been right but that does NOT mean you have to lie there like a doormat and become a dust-collector.

There really is a middle ground between being a human trash can and cutting people off altogether.

Good luck.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Madeline

I think the biggest thing that has been bothering me is that I sense very subtle changes in myself after I am around them.

For example, I go over to my friends house and all is fine at first. And for awhile the conversation is good - but after awhile it turns to secular topics and then complaints about people that we know, and a lot of bittermess starts seeping into the conversation. I know she is very frustrated with a lot of things in her life. And I start seeing the negative as well and then it is like my mind drops into this place where it is just thinking about things that are not that important.

Well keep in mind, their poverty. Their spiritual poverty is being shown, and from that perspective, you should be the shining light showing them the way toward Jesus.

I’m not talking about in your face religion, but your mere silence when gossiping begins, is an example. They will notice and reflect on your behaviour when you’re not aware of it. If you become aware, you need to figure out if your own ego is trying to step in and control the situation. Learn to be humble in your love for them.

Like tonight - my mother and I went for a walk - she started talking about someone I know - and I literally felt like I wanted to pull my hair out because I could not stand listening to her. Everything seemed very bitter to me - whereas to someone else it would just have been conversation to me every word seemed caustic - like it was grating against my emotions. Like someone was rubbing sandpaper against an open wound. I could not stand it. But then she goes on and on… and maybe I can get her to talk about something substantial and meaningful but not for long…and besides, she gets irritated and says all I want to do is talk about God and religion, so soon I am participating in it…

Once again, you’re mother is exhibiting her own spiritual poverty. However, you’re wanting to pull your hair out and getting upset about it, shows your own spiritual immaturity. See your mother as a poor soul who needs to be drawn away from gossip about other people. Try to change the subject in a subtle way, without attempting to create an image of piety in yourself. Humility is the key.

And I just notice so many subtle things about interacting with people. Like my friends who I have always loved being around - I go over there and more and more I just see like this swirl of problems and negativity around them - and I never used to before. I loved being around them but more and more I just see people with very deep problems that are not being resolved but are just being allowed to fester. And I know everyone has problems so I do not know if I am judging and being a jerk or maybe I am just sensing things I did not before.

Evaluate why you loved being around them. Was it your love for them, or did they feed your own ego? Only you can determine the reason here.

However, if it is love for them, then you won’t desire to be away from them because you see their bad behavior, but will feel compassion for them, because they are so poor in their spiritual life they can’t see the treasure you have found in Jesus Christ. You need to help them come to Christ, but again, not through in-your-face-religion, but through example done out of love and humility. Jesus didn’t stay away from sinners, he went among them in order to help them.

And I wonder if all this negative “energy” that is around them is the subtlety that I am picking up on that in very small and subtle ways creeps into my life and leads me away from where I want to be. Like Anne Catherine Emmerich I once read where she said that she could see like dark energy eminating from certain places and people - that stuff has to affect a person. Even if in very subtle ways.

Be careful on how you interpret what mystics experienced. Their mystical experiences are often given to them in the context of their own intellectual ability to understand. In her day, the culture she grew up in fed her intellectually and what God revealed to her was for her to understand and to share in the context of her day and age.

And I think of how Teresa of Avila used to say she did not want her daughters to deal with worldly people very much for the sake of their souls. And I know I am not a nun, but then I think she must have said that for a reason. There are things that can slip in that she must have wanted to protect them against.

St Teresa was speaking to cloistered nuns, but once again, she was speaking to them in the context of the time and culture where they lived. Remember, St Teresa was a victim of the Spanish Inquisition, and many of the worldly people she was speaking about, were actually clergy who had banned all spiritual books and prohibited even the Bible, from being translated into anything but Latin. Not being trained in Latin, St Teresa herself could not read the Bible.

BTW, some one will challenge me on this, so I’ll provide the source but don’t have it on line.
Its in the introduction to the Collected Works of St. Teresa of Avila, by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD, and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD

I just wonder if their presence makes me take a few steps forward when I am away and then four steps back when I am near them. Not because they are all bad - but because there are subtleties to human interactions that have to do with what we cannot see or even feel necessarily but that is there all the same.

If your faith is real, you’ll grow stronger not by avoiding them, but learning to live as a person of faith while being among them.

Prayer is the key to it all.

God Bless
Jim

 

[colmcille1]

Yes, deep down I know you are right about that.

I guess I just cannot stop thinking of where I would be on my faith journey if I had never left His side. I think I would be so much farther down the road than I am now. And I cannot sometimes help but feel alittle hypocritical, because at one time I was the “worldly” guy that I now preach to others that they shouldn’t be. I would be alot more comfortable preaching had I always been a holier man. But I also know that many saints only came back to God later in their lives to, so they give me comfort and confidence. Thank God and our Church for giving us the saints! They are a wealth of knowledge and strength for us seeking the holy life…

Thank you Colmcille!

Hi jimcav,
Thank you for your insightful post. I can identify with it hugely. I believe we are all part of one another’s spiritual search and, as you rightly point out, the great transformative lessons of the Saints lives can guide us unfailingly.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[ready]

St. Alphonsus Liguori, a very holy and wise doctor of the Church, says that we shouldn’t keep bad company. I recommend that you make new friends who at least aspire to holiness. You must pray for your old friends though, seeing you know of their spiritual need. Your family should be loved and respected with affection. If you can’t feel this, at least do good to them and don’t abandon them.

 

[Adam_Cook]

Avoiding people does not make you holy, true it is good to be around a few people that seek this holiness like yourself but know this, those friends of yours are in need of help most likely. God has placed an opportunity in front of you, but know that after a while if they don’t listen then they have hardened their hearts to God, they have rejected God cause they seek the evil of the world instead.

Christ states that we can not have 2 masters, we cannot have the world and God. We will either hate one and love the other. As such if they begin to completely shut you out. Its time to leave, you have done your work, you have tried to open the hearts. Also pray for help especially those Saints who have had luck in opening the hearts of people.

You are in a very interesting predicament brother, my prayers are with you.