Avoid Raising a Serial Killer

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originally by Pug
Yes, that is why I used the word “corpse” and “dismembered”. Those words communicate what is in the pictures. I see you are not suggesting it, but various voices seem to be suggesting that the problem with the pictures and children is not the pictures, but that nearby adults react to them. I want to know, are we so sure that it is a good idea not to react to them?
The use of the words corpse or image just mind me of the use of the word fetus not baby. The angry even for adults seems to be directed at the picture holder not the fact that someone is being killed inside… I would wonder if someone was holding a dead baby that they found at the abortion site if you would say "Shame on you for holding that dead baby."

Is it OK for parents to protect their child? If I knew that their was an abortion clinic down the street, I wouldn’t try not to go near it. I wouldn’t go by it the on day that they do abortions because that is usually the day you may find a picture of this sort.

As a parent when I didn’t want my child to see something, I would distract them. I was really good at this. AS I said we only have a few signs here and I defend their right to get the message out that they are killing children inside. There are also signs which say abortion exploits women and men. I don’t believe you are arguing against them…
 
Karen, you seem to lack understanding of the definition of the word ‘intention’. Most of us who are displaying these signs are not out there trying to see how many four year olds we can persuade (lack of intention, by definition). We are looking to influence the broader extent of the general public (intent).
encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/intent.html

in·tent in tént ] Definition:
  1. plan or purpose: something planned, or the purpose that accompanies a plan
I am a bit confused. Is the basis of your argument now that the protesters who choose to drive these trucks all over cities, hold up these signs by the driveways to toy stores, fly these planes over public beaches so unintelligent as to not realize who is seeing them?

Vern certainly does intend using these pictures to “persuade” young children:
" Childern’s values are formed at a very early age. If you wait until someone is “contemplating abortion” you have waited far too long."

Would you buy this exact same argument if the porn industry chose to use your methods? “We are just trying to reach adults, any exposure to children who see our displays of various graphic sex acts and “marital aids” is purely unintentional, it’s just an acceptable by product of our efforts to promote our business. What’s the problem? Your young children should be able to understand these things if you explain them properly–sex is part of life and won’t hurt them.”

If gay rights protesters used the same methods? “We are only trying to reach the gay members of the public with these ads showing graphic gay sex, etc, everyone else should just close their eyes or get used to it. Gay sex exists in this country and you should be prepared to explain what’s going on in these pictures to your children or not let them out of the house because we have the right to show these pictures anywhere at any time.”
 
Sex is not a part of the process of abortion. Abortion is the ending of LIFE which is through the process of procreation…
Hmmmm…

Catholic Church teaches that the only legitimate use of sex is that which is open to procreation

Procreation = sex, then, I would think, unless you disagree with the Church’s teaching on that matter and that one can separate the sex act from procreation?
 
The use of the words corpse or image just mind me of the use of the word fetus not baby. The angry even for adults seems to be directed at the picture holder not the fact that someone is being killed inside… I would wonder if someone was holding a dead baby that they found at the abortion site if you would say "Shame on you for holding that dead baby."

Is it OK for parents to protect their child? If I knew that their was an abortion clinic down the street, I wouldn’t try not to go near it. I wouldn’t go by it the on day that they do abortions because that is usually the day you may find a picture of this sort.

As a parent when I didn’t want my child to see something, I would distract them. I was really good at this. AS I said we only have a few signs here and I defend their right to get the message out that they are killing children inside. There are also signs which say abortion exploits women and men. I don’t believe you are arguing against them…
Gam, remember that the topic of this thread (chosen by Vern, btw), is specifically the practice of showing giant photographs of bloody dismembered bodies of babies in places where preschoolers and young children are known to be highly likely to be. Those of us who believe that such a practice is wrong are trying very hard to keep on the topic. There are a great many things in this world about which I am outraged and angry, but they are not the topics of this thread, so I don’t direct my discussion here toward them. That I am not discussing them here is not in any way an indication that I do not care about them.

I have demonstrably seen these photos many times. I am fully aware of exactly what happens in an abortion. I have said over and over that ending a human life is a terrible and tragic thing. Certainly, folks have every right to protest this, but not in any way imaginable.

In the example you cited, I certainly indeed would say “shame on you for holding that baby” if the person in question was parading that baby up and down the streets in search of publicity and shock value and otherwise treating it as an object to be used for their own purposes rather than as a human being worthy of respect and dignity, even in death. Are these photographs the equivalent of that? No.

As I said, if these pictures were confined to places where one might reasonably expect to find them—outside the abortion clinic, in publicized marches, etc, —this wouldn’t be an issue. Parents of young children could make an informed decision.

As a parent there are plenty of inappropriate things in this world from which I have had to distract my child. I have had to distract her from the drunk on the street, the couple having sex in a public park in the afternoon, etc. I am, unfortunately, no longer surprised that I have to lump the public behavior of some Christians operating in the name of Jesus in with those other examples.

Yes, I have had to work incredibly hard to keep her from being exposed to this particular depiction of the ugliness of which humans are capable. Fortunately, I don’t typically go near the mall on the weekend (or at all if I can avoid it) and the trucks are not common in the areas where I go…yet. I was able to barely manage to get the pictures off of my car in the grocery store parking lot and dispose of the cards in the McDonalds’ restroom (the one with the big playspace) without her seeing them.

I have to go through enough fairly rigorous methods to avoid having her exposed to the deluge of sex and violence that come out of Hollywood before she is ready to deal with such. Do you really think that Jesus had in mind Christians engaging in public behavior in His name that requires parents to have a battle plan to avoid seeing them in order just to responsibly parent their young children?
 
I have to go through enough fairly rigorous methods to avoid having her exposed to the deluge of sex and violence that come out of Hollywood before she is ready to deal with such. Do you really think that Jesus had in mind Christians engaging in public behavior in His name that requires parents to have a battle plan to avoid seeing them in order just to responsibly parent their young children?
Do you really think Jesus would have in mind pagans trying to tell Christians how they should practice their faith?
 
Hmmmm…

Catholic Church teaches that the only legitimate use of sex is that which is open to procreation

Procreation = sex, then, I would think, unless you disagree with the Church’s teaching on that matter and that one can separate the sex act from procreation?
By the time an abortion is procured procreation and sex have long since passed. We are talking about slaughtering children-not sex.
 
Do you really think Jesus would have in mind pagans trying to tell Christians how they should practice their faith?
If some Christians were failing to follow His example, then, yes, I think He would be fine with a Neopagan holding up the mirror and asking “is this really what Jesus would do?” I think He might be a bit saddened that it would need a Neopagan to do so because the Christians are so off track they couldn’t see their actions for what they were themselves and would not heed the words of their fellow Christians about it.

However, this is not “telling Christians how they should practice their faith.” It is talking to some Christians about the specific way in which they choose to pursue specific social justice activities. If you cast your mind back to the extended discussions, a great many of the people who are objecting to this particular use of these images are your fellow Catholics.

Frankly, I am not particularly concerned with whether the people using these photographs of bloody dismembered babies in this way are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Neopagan, or atheist. I use the examples of Jesus’ teaching and the teaching of the Catholic Church in this thread because I am talking currently to Catholics who are defending this practice. By your declaration of your religion, you have stated that you consider both Jesus and the Church to be authoritative. I am pointing out ways in which you are acting that are contrary not only to the societal standards of common courtesy and decency and appropriate behavior towards young children, but to the examples and teachings of your religion.

Matthew 5: 43-48 (New International Version)
43"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies* and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The sorrow should be that a Neopagan is advocating behaving with a higher standard of care toward your own Christian children than some Christians do.*
 
So it seems that it has gotten the point where even you cant justify your own logic behind displaying graphing images to children. You cant even identify your own logic.
Just 'cause you say it don’t make it so.😛
This isnt my logic. Im for waiting until children are ready to view graphic images and not be distressed by them and also respecting the childs parents by getting their permission before exposing the childs to such images. I said that a parent would have a far better idea of what their child is ready for than a complete stranger would.
And if the parents simply neglect their responsibilities?

Remember the original theme of this thread. Parents’ inappropriate reaction to “disturbing” things hurts children. The same parent who throws a hissy fit upon seeing a picture of Mary Rose Doe also throws hissy fits over other things.
 
By the time an abortion is procured procreation and sex have long since passed. We are talking about slaughtering children-not sex.
If you were only approaching women who were actively seeking an abortion, I might buy that. Vern, for instance, is talking about getting children as young as possible. At that point, it is indeed about sex. “Don’t have sex unless you are willing to have a baby–killing the baby because you don’t want to accept the consequences of having sex” is actually the message I hear most frequently.
 
Remember the original theme of this thread. Parents’ inappropriate reaction to “disturbing” things hurts children. The same parent who throws a hissy fit upon seeing a picture of Mary Rose Doe also throws hissy fits over other things.
Exactly what other “things” are you proposing that children should be exposed to by strangers lest they possibly encounter them “too late”?
 
Exactly what other “things” are you proposing that children should be exposed to by strangers lest they possibly encounter them “too late”?
And the trap said SNAP!😃

You just stepped into it!

A parent cannot anticipate what or when a child will see something “disturbing.” Therefore a parent should practice not throwing hissy fits. To do otherwise is bad parenting.
 
If some Christians were failing to follow His example, then, yes, I think He would be fine with a Neopagan holding up the mirror and asking “is this really what Jesus would do?” I think He might be a bit saddened that it would need a Neopagan to do so because the Christians are so off track they couldn’t see their actions for what they were themselves and would not heed the words of their fellow Christians about it.

However, this is not “telling Christians how they should practice their faith.” It is talking to some Christians about the specific way in which they choose to pursue specific social justice activities. If you cast your mind back to the extended discussions, a great many of the people who are objecting to this particular use of these images are your fellow Catholics.

Frankly, I am not particularly concerned with whether the people using these photographs of bloody dismembered babies in this way are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Neopagan, or atheist. I use the examples of Jesus’ teaching and the teaching of the Catholic Church in this thread because I am talking currently to Catholics who are defending this practice. By your declaration of your religion, you have stated that you consider both Jesus and the Church to be authoritative. I am pointing out ways in which you are acting that are contrary not only to the societal standards of common courtesy and decency and appropriate behavior towards young children, but to the examples and teachings of your religion.

Matthew 5: 43-48 (New International Version)
43"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies* and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The sorrow should be that a Neopagan is advocating behaving with a higher standard of care toward your own Christian children than some Christians do.*

I’m sorry but I’m not about to to read your opinion about a book you don’t believe in and a man you reject. The idea that a pagan can Lecture a Christian on how to practice Christianity is one the most ludicrous things I’ve ever heard
 
And the trap said SNAP!😃

You just stepped into it!

A parent cannot anticipate what or when a child will see something “disturbing.” Therefore a parent should practice not throwing hissy fits. To do otherwise is bad parenting.
Yup!
 
Without sex, no baby, with no baby, no abortion. Pretty initmately connected to me.
How come you didn’t comment on the part where I said that also mean homicide and sex are intimately connected? Hmm? Without sex, no baby, nobody to grow up and get murdered.
The understatement was intentional.
and the reason?
A well publicized march is not the same as outside the driveway to a toy store on a Saturday afternoon with no way to turn off ahead of time and no warning.
Let’s see. Who might the ones to turn off ahead of time be?
Using them in a well-publicized march is an example of the protesters having made reasonable efforts to alert folks that there is the possibility of such images and given them a reasonable chance to avoid such.
Most if not all pro-life marches I am aware of are well publicized to the extent that the media bias doesn’t hush it out.
I may not like it, but I cannot argue that it is an appropriate and reasonable use of such images and that it is an example of intending to only show them to the appropriate audience.
The general public is an appropriate audience.
Will there be inevitably a few accidental exposures—sure. No one is asking for perfection or miracles, just reasonable and common sense precautions that show good faith efforts.
No good reason to hide the truth. As stated before it is tolerable for young children to see them. Actually not just tolerable, but probably desirable. Children should learn early.
 
Hmmmm…

Catholic Church teaches that the only legitimate use of sex is that which is open to procreation
Pro-creation, not death.

Procreation = sex, then, I would think, unless you disagree with the Church’s teaching on that matter and that one can separate the sex act from procreation?Show me where I said the two are separate. Where did you read that. I said sex is intimately linked with life, not abortion.
 
I’m sorry but I’m not about to to read your opinion about a book you don’t believe in and a man you reject. The idea that a pagan can Lecture a Christian on how to practice Christianity is one the most ludicrous things I’ve ever heard
“A man I reject”----would that be Jesus or the Pope? I am presuming the Pope, because most Christians I know refer to Jesus as God, not as “a man.” Because I do not follow either, does that make the teachings of either irrelevant for you, who do claim to follow them? I have been giving you the words in the Scripture and the interpretations given in their own words by your Church----take issue with them if you do not agree with what they say. Am I wrong to expect someone to act in accordance with their stated religious beliefs?

How do you respond to all the Catholics and other Christians who are raising exactly the same objections?
 
So kids are part of the intended audience—thanks.
That’s what I said, however I have also said that preschooler’s are not a singled out and targeted segment of that audience.
Really curious as to how you expect these signs to be effective in communicating to unborn babies that they shouldn’t seek an abortion.
Really curious as to how you expect these signs to be detrimental to unborn babies and that they will be harmed by them.
 
…As a parent I have the right to protect my child’s innocence. Whether it’s photos of aborted children or photos of piles of dead bodies in Nazi Germany. You don’t need to either to know it’s wrong -I didn’t.

The shock and awe mentality is what is desensitizing our children to violence. Peaceful prayerful demonstrations show prolifers as caring, concerned people. Photos of chopped up children and angry shouting is what gets prolifers dismissed as as religious nut jobs.

What scared pregnant woman is going to reach out to an angry protester declaring her a murderer, for help?
:clapping: 👍
 
How come you didn’t comment on the part where I said that also mean homicide and sex are intimately connected? Hmm? Without sex, no baby, nobody to grow up and get murdered.
Sure, be glad to comment. Infanticide and homicide can also be directly connected with sex, though not always as directly as abortion. There are many crimes that are connected with sex, why stop at homicide? To teach about rape, one has to teach about sex. There’s prostitution, drug use, pornography, sexual slavery, etc.
Let’s see. Who might the ones to turn off ahead of time be? Most if not all pro-life marches I am aware of are well publicized to the extent that the media bias doesn’t hush it out.
I have repeatedly said, I thought in English, that I am not talking about organized and publicized pro-life marches.
Which other “truths” shall we not hide from these young children? Why not let everyone publish exactly what they want in any way and any venue they want and behave in any way they want without let or hindrance? It’s all “the truth” of human behavior.
Because we have some basic societal standards of appropriate public behavior, particularly in front of young children.
Thank you for the admission that those who use these pictures in this way are not, in fact, only “tolerating” or not “intending” or “regretting” that some young children might inadvertently be exposed to them.
If children should learn early, I am surprised those of you who are so gung-ho on showing these images of bloody dismembered babies are not beating down the doors of the Catholic schools and churches demanding that they be included as part of the curriculum for young children. Why has the Church, if they are so in favor of this particular use of these photos and believe them to be beneficial, not been including them in instruction of young children or even older children for decades and publishing guides telling others how to use them? Why would you want less than the optimum moral education for your own children, the children of your own religious community for whom you have a greater responsibilitiy, anything less than you are willing and determined to give to the children of everyone driving by a street corner?
 
Really curious as to how you expect these signs to be detrimental to unborn babies and that they will be harmed by them.
I have never raised any objection to you showing these pictures to as many unborn babies as you so desire. Go right ahead. Just leave their preschool siblings out of it.
 
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