Avoid the Evangelical Religions

[faithnotworkd3]

John 3:3 - “Most assurdley I say to you, unless you one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”.

And why do Evangelical Christians evangelise? They are following Jesus’ command of “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Matthew 28:19

 

[meltzerboy]

OP, I am sure you are sincere and trying to lead people to Truth. However, I think your particular methods (particularly the name of your FB page) might be counterproductive, because it comes across as bashing of other faiths. If I were seeking the truth about God, I would be much more drawn to a page called “Discover the Truth of Catholicism” than I would be to “Avoid Born Again Religions”. Think about it in reverse: if you saw a page called “Avoid the false Catholic religion”, it would probably offend you. However, a page entitled “Baptist truths”, not as much… Do you see what I mean?

Excellent point! Didn’t Jesus or Paul say something about gentle persuasion with love?

 

[TimothyH]

Those who bring up unity of belief within the Catholic Church as being more important that disagreement with other Churches make very valid points.

But I will acknowledge how hard it is to trust God and His Church when we don’t understand and how difficult it is to just accept things which we feel are not true. The entire Old Testament is full of stories of how difficulit is was for the Israelites to trust God. We can learn a lesson however from the way in which Isreal entered the promised land in the Book of Joshua.

Now choose twelve men, one from each of the tribes of Israel. When the soles of the feet of the priests carrying the ark of the LORD, the Lord of the whole earth, touch the water of the Jordan, it will cease to flow; for the water flowing down from upstream will halt in a solid bank." The people struck their tents to cross the Jordan, with the priests carrying the ark of the covenant ahead of them. No sooner had these priestly bearers of the ark waded into the waters at the edge of the Jordan, which overflows all its banks during the entire season of the harvest, than the waters flowing from upstream halted, backing up in a solid mass for a very great distance indeed, from Adam, a city in the direction of Zarethan; while those flowing downstream toward the Salt Sea of the Arabah disappeared entirely. (Joshua 3:12-16)

One of the foundational things I learned in my Christian walk from marginal Catholicism, to flirting with Evangelicalism and back again, is that the Church was right enough times to make me trust Her, even when I didn’t see how I would be able to agree or even when I didn’t understand. At a certain point, the Church had been right enough times for my trust to reach critical mass (no pun intended). Like the bearers of the Ark in Joshua 3 who had to step into the raging flood waters first and only then did God stop the waters, every time I stepped out in obedience to the Church, my mind was illuminated with very clearn understanding of why She was right. And great grace and tremendous peace and joy always came from it. Obedience came first, then understanding, and then great reward.

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. (John 17:20-23)

Jesus’ prayer to the Father tells us that unity is a way in which God the Father and God the Son may be in us. Unity is a way in which the world knows that Jesus was sent by God. And the most important lesson from Jesus’ prayer is that unity among Christians is a means by which we are brought to perfection. And we are “brought to perfection as one.” We can never be brought to perfection if we are not totally united. That unity starts at home, in the Church established by Christ himself. If we don’t even have unity of belief within our own Church, how can we complain when people leave it for Evangelicalism?

Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. (1 Peter 1:22)

Most Christians arn’t familiar with this verse. Obedience to the truth purifies us and only then can we have a sincere mutual love for one another. Genuine love for our Christian brothers and sisters, both inside of Catholicism and outside **is impossible **without first being obedient to the truth as taught by Jesus Christ through his Holy Church.

I pray that the OP will sincerly put aside his disagreements with the Church and if he cannot understand, then just obey like the bearers of the Ark in Joshua 3. They had to step into a raging river carrying the Ark of the Covenant and it frightened them so much so the Bible tells us, that they stood motionless, not moving a muscle the whole time Israel crossed over. I too can testify that obedience in the face of uncertainty is not easy. I too have stood motionless in fear, afraid to move a muscle. But there is rich reward; much peace and great grace in the end.

It was the Ark bearers obedience in the face of great fear and uncertainty which allowed the whole nation of Israel, united as one, to enter the promised land. We can’t have genuine love for one another and we can’t enter the promised land on our own.

-Tim-

 

[meltzerboy]

Jharek, please do not put words into my moutn. I have never defended abortion in any of my posts. I have made it very clear that I accept the church’s teaching regarding the immorality of abortion.

Corky, contraception is not an issue that has been declared immoral for millenia. But if you have any ancient documents proving that abortion has been the subject of discussion for millenia, then please give me a web link so I can read them.

As for homosexuality, I believe that NT scripture which speaks of this subject refers to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual behavior. A true homosexual is mentally, spiritually, emotionally and (for men) physically unable to mate with a member of the opposite sex. God has permitted nature to create these people; they are not the norm, but they are a part of God’s creation. They are not possessed with evil spirits, they are not evil, degenerate, perverts who choose same-sex relationships for the reasons Paul enumerated when he spoke of the pagans (Romans and Greeks) who God abandoned to their lusts. They simply are not capabale of being heterosexual. Are you capable of becoming homosexual? Do you have that choice? Could you turn yourself into a homosexual if you had any reason to do so? Of course not. And they cannot turn themselves into heterosexuals. Period. Many heterosexuals do engage in homosexual behavior, some for money, some for drugs, some because they are so lonely that they just want someone to love them. But these are not true homosexuals. The true homosexual can never be hetero sexual, at least not by any means known to man. God, of course, can change anyone into anything, but He has chosen not to do this on any kind of mass level. “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” The hatred of homosexuals will prove to be a real stumbling block to many socalled Christians.

I believe your attitude regarding homosexuality is more in keeping with Quakerism and Reform Judaism than with Catholicism. Not that I disagree with you; but this is not, to my knowledge, Catholic teaching.

 

[Corki]

Corky, contraception is not an issue that has been declared immoral for millenia. But if you have any ancient documents proving that abortion has been the subject of discussion for millenia, then please give me a web link so I can read them.

ECF

“This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her is joined to the man to gratify his passion.” Augustine, The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 (A.D. 388).

Clement

“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted” (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

Bible

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 5:21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The original for ‘sorcery’ is ‘pharmakeia’ including drugs to prevent pregnancy.

As for homosexuality, I believe that NT scripture which speaks of this subject refers to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual behavior. A true homosexual is mentally, spiritually, emotionally and (for men) physically unable to mate with a member of the opposite sex.

That’s untrue. A homosexual, is:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.

Throughout history, there have been homosexuals who married and even fathered/bore children.

God has permitted nature to create these people; they are not the norm, but they are a part of God’s creation.

Yes, but there are many disordered things in God’s creation. The jury is still out as to whether homosexual persons are created that way or are the product of environment and emotional state or a combination of all of these.

They are not possessed with evil spirits, they are not evil, degenerate, perverts who choose same-sex relationships for the reasons Paul enumerated when he spoke of the pagans (Romans and Greeks) who God abandoned to their lusts.

Correct. Not evil. Suffering from a disordered attraction.

They simply are not capabale of being heterosexual. Are you capable of becoming homosexual?

Some are the majority are not.

Do you have that choice? Could you turn yourself into a homosexual if you had any reason to do so? Of course not.

Actually, I had that choice. I chose heterosexuality.

And they cannot turn themselves into heterosexuals. Period. Many heterosexuals do engage in homosexual behavior, some for money, some for drugs, some because they are so lonely that they just want someone to love them. But these are not true homosexuals.

The Church’s teaching on homosexuality is focused on homosexual acts, not on the reasons behind them.

The true homosexual can never be hetero sexual, at least not by any means known to man. God, of course, can change anyone into anything, but He has chosen not to do this on any kind of mass level.

These two sentances contradict each other.

“Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” The hatred of homosexuals will prove to be a real stumbling block to many socalled Christians

Catholic teaching is to avoid any unjust treatment or hatred of homosexuals.

You still have not answered the question. If you believe the Catholic Church to be the true Church, to have the fullness of truth how can you simultaneously believe that she teaches error in matters of morals? The infallible nature of the Church is that she cannot err in matters of faith and morals. You seem to be picking and chosing which parts of Catholic teaching to give assent to.

 

[jrgiancola]

Meltzerboy, again my Facebook post is not there to attract members to the RCC. I trust the Holy Spirit to do that. As I said in a previous past, when asked about the RCC, I tell others of its unique and precious relationship with God. I outlined these things specifically in a prior posting.

Tim. You are correct. The church has been right enough times that I do trust her. However, as I said in a previous post, I do believe it has erred in the past and at times still errs. Whatever men are involved in is always subject to human error, unless it is the Pope speaking ex cathedra, which is directly from the Holy Spirit.

One of the things I admire most about our church, it its ability to “refine” its doctrines when they are proven to be erroneous. Such occurred when science proved Galileo was correct about the sun being the center of the solar system. Recently, a Vatican representative said that the existence of alien beings is not contrary to Catholic belief. I doubt that St. Augustine would have believed that one.

What I preach about homosexuals is nothing more than acceptance that they too are part of God’s creation and that they are our brothers and sisters. Right now, society considers them the least valuable and the least worthy of society. According to Jesus, what we do to them will be received by Jesus as having been done to Him. Love is more than an emotion. Jerry Falwell used to say “I love them, but I hate their sin.” What hypocrisy. I can think of no better way to hate someone than to deny them the respect, acceptance, dignity and human rights that are the inalienable gifts from God to all men. If you cannot love, you will never see God.

 

[jrgiancola]

I stand corrected. The wasting of sperm has been prohibited in the past. I still disagree with the teaching on contraception. Paul said that those who cannot control their sexual passions should marry. Marriage is not only for procreation; it is also for the enjoyment of sexual pleasures.

 

[jrgiancola]

Thank you all for your feedback. I believe I’ve said everything on the subjects that I have to say. God bless you all and I’ll see you at Mass.

 

[GraceSofia]

There are many differences between our church and other religions which are far more important than contraception, abortion and gay marriage. Don’t you find it interesting that Jesus never mentioned one of these issues? Other than homosexuality, neither the OT nor the NT even mentions contraception or abortion..

How about the Fifth Commandment: You shall not kill. The Catholic Church has always taught that the direct killing of an unborn child is a grave violation of the rights of God because human life is sacred.

The Catechism on Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

Jesus DID mention these issues. In Matthew 19:18, Jesus said that you shall not murder, and in Rev. 22:15 it says that outside of heaven are “dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.” And there are other Scripture verses.

Abortion, contraception and homosexuality are not the main issues of Catholicism. If you think they are, then perhaps you should join the Assemblies of God.

The Catholic Church is about proclaiming Christ’s Gospel, the message of life; however, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of your posts muddying the waters regarding abortion, contraception, and homosexual activism.

 

[GraceSofia]

One of the things I admire most about our church, it its ability to “refine” its doctrines when they are proven to be erroneous. Such occurred when science proved Galileo was correct about the sun being the center of the solar system. Recently, a Vatican representative said that the existence of alien beings is not contrary to Catholic belief. I doubt that St. Augustine would have believed that one.

Intentional or not, this is rather misleading. Doctrines have not “proven to be erroneous” and the Galileo affair was not really about doctrine.
Here is something on it: catholicleague.org/research/galileo.html

“A Vatican representative” saying something is not doctrine or dogma.

Mini, I’m not trying to convert anyone to Catholicism.

Obviously not.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Intentional or not, this is rather misleading. Doctrines have not “proven to be erroneous” and the Galileo affair was not really about doctrine.
Here is something on it: catholicleague.org/research/galileo.html

“A Vatican representative” saying something is not doctrine or dogma.

Obviously not.

Bull’s eye response there, GS.

Actually, many of jrgiancola’s posts across threads speak of disagreement with Catholic doctrine and erroneous reading of Scripture and Church doctrinal history. And here he is, posting in this forum with a Catholic label, as if the reasons he listed why he is Catholic in another thread are sufficient or the minimum requirement to be Catholic.

As mentioned in the other thread, he needs to seriously take up Catholic RE lessons. Other posters have also pointed out the error of his beliefs based on individual and moral relativistic interpretation of Catholic positions on homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, pornography and abortion.
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