Away in a manger...

[Robert_in_SD]

Here’s a question I always like to ask at this time of year. To all faiths, what significance, if any do you give to the fact that the scriptures tell of the Christ child being laid in a manger? (Lk 2:12)

A manger is a trough or an open box in a stable used to hold feed or fodder for livestock. (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dict. 1983).

Does this placement have any sort of Eucharistic symbolism in your opinion, see John, Chapter 6, or was the feeder just a reasonable place to put an infant born in a stable?

Peace,
Robert

P.S. And a Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Interestingly enough, in iconography Christ’s manger is actually depicted as a cave. I understand that caves were indeed used by shepherds of that time period to keep their animals at night (an open stable at night in the Middle East would’ve probably frozen poor Mary and Jesus to death!). In fact in the icon, two animals are present with Christ: a donkey and an ox, which is in reference to the messianic prophesy in Isaiah 1:3. The use of a cave manger in iconography most likely refer to Christ’s death: He comes from the earth, from which man came, and He will return to the earth for His Resurrection (note too that Christ is wrapped in tight swaddling clothes resembling that of His death shroud).

I’m not trying to get this into a topic of iconography - far from it, I’m simply answering the OP title about what the concept of Christ being born in a humble manger means, and where my attitude is coming from. Here’s an example of the icon I was talking about.

http://wanweihsien.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/nativity-icon.jpg

 

[rev_kevin]

Interestingly enough, in iconography Christ’s manger is actually depicted as a cave. I understand that caves were indeed used by shepherds of that time period to keep their animals at night (an open stable at night in the Middle East would’ve probably frozen poor Mary and Jesus to death!). In fact in the icon, two animals are present with Christ: a donkey and an ox, which is in reference to the messianic prophesy in Isaiah 1:3. The use of a cave manger in iconography most likely refer to Christ’s death: He comes from the earth, from which man came, and He will return to the earth for His Resurrection (note too that Christ is wrapped in tight swaddling clothes resembling that of His death shroud).

I’m not trying to get this into a topic of iconography - far from it, I’m simply answering the OP title about what the concept of Christ being born in a humble manger means, and where my attitude is coming from. Here’s an example of the icon I was talking about.

http://wanweihsien.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/nativity-icon.jpg

I have to agree with you. The stables were caves and the manger was carved into the rock wall. So I could see the reference to Christs death, he was born in a cave and was baried in a cave and the place they layed Jesus was type of bed carved from the rock wall as well. Ya know for some reason I never put these 2 together.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

What a beautiful icon. Thanks so much for sharing it. I think the cave and swaddling clothes also holds much meaning. Is there any iconography that you know of that takes up the notion of the carved trough (manger) in which Jesus was laid, in a eucharistic sense?

Peace,
Robert

 

[RSD]

Interestingly enough, in iconography Christ’s manger is actually depicted as a cave. I understand that caves were indeed used by shepherds of that time period to keep their animals at night (an open stable at night in the Middle East would’ve probably frozen poor Mary and Jesus to death!). In fact in the icon, two animals are present with Christ: a donkey and an ox, which is in reference to the messianic prophesy in Isaiah 1:3. The use of a cave manger in iconography most likely refer to Christ’s death: He comes from the earth, from which man came, and He will return to the earth for His Resurrection (note too that Christ is wrapped in tight swaddling clothes resembling that of His death shroud).

I’m not trying to get this into a topic of iconography - far from it, I’m simply answering the OP title about what the concept of Christ being born in a humble manger means, and where my attitude is coming from. Here’s an example of the icon I was talking about.

http://wanweihsien.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/nativity-icon.jpg

Beautiful! Thank you for sharing.

 

[Julian0404]

Jesus being laid in a manger was the prelude to the Eucharist. The manger being the vessel from which animals ate, and Jesus being placed therein prefigured His becoming our food through the Eucharistic miracle.

 

[LindaSK]

You are looking for parallel between the consecrated host on the paten and the body of the baby Jesus lying on the manger?

John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”…and many of the other verses from the ‘Bread of Life’ discourse.

I can see your point. He could have been laid in a stall instead. So, it is highly possible this is a foreshadowing of the Eucharist. Where have I heard that with God there is no such thing as coincidence? Heavenly food laid in a manger - I can see it.

A beautiful icon. I agree!

Check out www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography.htm Read the caption under the it. (Sorry, my computer is not letting me copy and paste anything. Maybe someone else can. Time to call my son!!)

A blessed Christmas!

 

[dianaiad]

Jesus being laid in a manger was the prelude to the Eucharist. The manger being the vessel from which animals ate, and Jesus being placed therein prefigured His becoming our food through the Eucharistic miracle.

As a non-Catholic, I have to say that the above imagery disturbs me on a very visceral level. I certainly can understand how the analogy works, but,m’goodness.

Personally, I think it was just…handy. The imagery of Him being born in the most humble of circumstances is very well served by His birth in a stable/cave; I don’t think we need to add offering Him up as food to the mix.

…I had always thought that the idea of transubstantiation, though literal (in the sense of the ‘mysteries,’) was not quite THAT literal.

 

[dianaiad]

You are looking for parallel between the consecrated host on the paten and the body of the baby Jesus lying on the manger?

John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”…and many of the other verses from the ‘Bread of Life’ discourse.

I can see your point. He could have been laid in a stall instead.

Not reasonably, no. A stall is large; there must be room in it for animals to stand and move around. Also, they are dirty–those same animals deficate and urinate there. Who would put an infant in one? The manger, however, is a relatively clean and protected place; small and confined, so that the baby won’t get ‘lost.’ I imagine that Mary put Him there for the same reason she used the traditional swaddling bands of the time; to make Him feel safe.

So, it is highly possible this is a foreshadowing of the Eucharist. Where have I heard that with God there is no such thing as coincidence? Heavenly food laid in a manger - I can see it.

I can see where y’all, looking back, can project such foreshadowing. However…I think it’s taking the thing one step too far.

A beautiful icon. I agree!

Well THAT I certainly agree with!

Check out www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography.htm Read the caption under the it. (Sorry, my computer is not letting me copy and paste anything. Maybe someone else can. Time to call my son!!)

A blessed Christmas!

 

[Monica4316]

I agree that Jesus being laid in a manger is symbolic of the Eucharist

I dont believe anything happened “accidently”…

 

[Marie5890]

I agree that Jesus being laid in a manger is symbolic of the Eucharist

I dont believe anything happened “accidently”…

Sorta of like being born in Bethlehem which translates “house of bread”

It’s a theme that runs thru His life, isn’t it.

 

[Rence]

I never thought of it the way the above posters thought of it but it’s interesting.

Kids and lambs often sleep in mangers, so I thought it was a practical place. It’s safe, and it’s warm (hay is warm).

As for shelter, it could be a cave or an open barn. Goats and lambs only need three-sided shelters with overhead protection. Padding it with hay or straw keeps them warm. They can take pretty cold temperatures, but should be out of the rain and wind. So either a cave or an open barn would work for me

 

[KathleenGee]

Byzantine Wolf,

Thank you for the most beautiful icon of the Nativity of Our Lord…

To see the importance of signs and symbols, their meaning and signficance, we turn to Scripture and to the angel of the Lord who appeared to the shepherds and said, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people…And this will be a sign for you (this is a phrase used before that all are to take full attention and note): you will find an infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.”

A manger is a feeder for animals. There was a star, there were angels, which were all significant, but to point out a manger also had great meaning.

The Lord’s placement in the manger symbolized part of His mission to us…that He would become food for us.

 

[LindaSK]

I said He could have been place in a stall because, when I was too little to take off, my parents used to put me in an empty stall when they milked cows. I don’t remember, but that’s how the story went!!

 

[KathleenGee]

We see the animals in adoration of the Christ Child near the Christ Child…we heard of stories and the saints and the behavior of animals…a priest told us in ancient Israel their animals were kept close to the owners…

I worked overseas…went into a church to pray that had wrought iron windows with no glass. The swallows would fly in during Mass and during private prayer. The flying creatures did their part to keep God’s house clean.

 

[peary1]

Here’s a question I always like to ask at this time of year. To all faiths, what significance, if any do you give to the fact that the scriptures tell of the Christ child being laid in a manger? (Lk 2:12)

A manger is a trough or an open box in a stable used to hold feed or fodder for livestock. (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dict. 1983).

Does this placement have any sort of Eucharistic symbolism in your opinion, see John, Chapter 6, or was the feeder just a reasonable place to put an infant born in a stable?

Peace,
Robert

P.S. And a Merry Christmas to you all.

Of course it has Eucharistic symbolism. Everything about the life of Christ has Eucharistic symbolism. Even the town of Bethlehem has Eucharistic symbolism in its name. It means “House of Bread.”

 

[Robert_in_SD]

As a non-Catholic, I have to say that the above imagery disturbs me on a very visceral level. I certainly can understand how the analogy works, but,m’goodness.

Personally, I think it was just…handy. The imagery of Him being born in the most humble of circumstances is very well served by His birth in a stable/cave; I don’t think we need to add offering Him up as food to the mix.

…I had always thought that the idea of transubstantiation, though literal (in the sense of the ‘mysteries,’) was not quite THAT literal.

Thanks for joining us Dianaiad. And a Merry Christmas to you.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Not reasonably, no. A stall is large; there must be room in it for animals to stand and move around. Also, they are dirty–those same animals deficate and urinate there. Who would put an infant in one? The manger, however, is a relatively clean and protected place; small and confined, so that the baby won’t get ‘lost.’ I imagine that Mary put Him there for the same reason she used the traditional swaddling bands of the time; to make Him feel safe.

I can agree with the practicality of the situation and the desire to keep the Christ child off of the floor. But in a feeding trough? There were safer places to hold Him, like in Mary’s arms, or Joseph’s lap, etc. So why do the scriptures set forth such an explicit account of where Jesus was laid. This has always been something I ponder at this time of year.

dianaiad:

I can see where y’all, looking back, can project such foreshadowing. However…I think it’s taking the thing one step too far.

Granted that, perhaps it is to some degree a projection of my personal belief into the text. Certainly, I know of no doctrinal teaching or official interpretation of the manger and it’s symbolism, if any. Then again, I do feel a burning in my bosom when I contemplate the possibility of a deeper meaning beyond simple practicality.

Peace,
Robert

 

[jmcrae]

I agree that Jesus being laid in a manger is symbolic of the Eucharist

I dont believe anything happened “accidently”…

Every chapter of Luke’s Gospel has a symbolic Eucharistic reference in it, via food and/or drink.

 

[Auriel]

Never thought of the manger that way, perhaps that thought applies more to Catholics?
I always saw the swaddling clothes as symbolic however, when I first was old enough to ask what the heck swaddling clothes were. And I wondered why Mary and Joseph had swaddling clothes handy.

Interesting thread though. I never knew the town of Bethlehem meant “House of Bread.”

And agree about the icon. GORGEOUS! I collect Russian plates and your graphic was so snagged!