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jmcrae
Guest
They knew she was pregnant, you know, and they had everything ready for Him - Jesus didn’t just beam down from Heaven on Christmas morning, unexpectedly.
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Auriel
Guest
Ahh, see I always associated swaddling clothes with the dead. They wrapped the dead in swaddling cloth before they buried them.They knew she was pregnant, you know, and they had everything ready for Him - Jesus didn’t just beam down from Heaven on Christmas morning, unexpectedly.
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dianaiad
Guest
The thing about symbols is that they mean what the user thinks they mean. So if you want to use this as a symbol of transubstantiation, and it works for you, fine. Given that this thread is in NON-Catholic religions, though, I thought that a non-Catholic view might be appropriate, as well as this view being proposed here that putting HIm in a manger was a type of His later offering Himself as food, quite literally, to the human race.I can agree with the practicality of the situation and the desire to keep the Christ child off of the floor. But in a feeding trough? There were safer places to hold Him, like in Mary’s arms, or Joseph’s lap, etc. So why do the scriptures set forth such an explicit account of where Jesus was laid. This has always been something I ponder at this time of year.
Granted that, perhaps it is to some degree a projection of my personal belief into the text. Certainly, I know of no doctrinal teaching or official interpretation of the manger and it’s symbolism, if any. Then again, I do feel a burning in my bosom when I contemplate the possibility of a deeper meaning beyond simple practicality.
Peace,
Robert
Now me, personally, having given birth and having had to deal with the entire situation of juggling babies and one’s own needs, I am, perhaps, more aware of the sheer practical problems Mary faced than you might be.
I think that Mary used the manger because…she couldn’t hold Him all the time. There was a great deal to be seen to–there were, evidently, no midwives to help her out any. She and Joseph were rather busy seeing to the needs of both the newborn–and of Mary.I believe that she used the manger because…there was no cradle. As well, Mary would not have held Him with her when she slept, for fear of ‘overlaying’ the child, and smothering Him in His sleep…and there was this naturally cozy, protected space.
I’m sorry I reacted the way I did to the sincere expression of faith expressed here in regard to what some see as a type of Eucharistic sacrifice in His being placed in a manger. I can only plead a mild shock–and an unfortunate tendency to let my fingers run away with the keyboard.
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TheosisM
Guest
I never even thought about this! I agree, this can definitely be seen as a Eucharistic symbol.
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peary1
Guest
I think the words to the hymn “Away in a Manger” are wonderful and awe-inspiring:
Away in a manger,
No crib for His bed
The little Lord Jesus
Laid down His sweet head
The stars in the bright sky
Looked down where He lay
The little Lord Jesus
Asleep on the hay
The cattle are lowing
The poor Baby wakes
But little Lord Jesus
No crying He makes
I love Thee, Lord Jesus
Look down from the sky
And stay by my side,
'Til morning is nigh.
Be near me, Lord Jesus,
I ask Thee to stay
Close by me forever
And love me I pray
Bless all the dear children
In Thy tender care
And take us to heaven
To live with Thee there
It doesnt get better or more devotional than that!
“Away in a Manger” is always the first carol that children are taught. *Away in a Manger *was originally published in 1885 in a Lutheran Sunday school book as a poem. Two years later, James Murray published it as “Luther’s Cradle Hymn” giving rise to the misconception that the words were penned by Martin Luther himself.
In the United States, music of the hymn “Flow Gently, Sweet Afton” (originally a Scottish tune) was applied to the poem almost immediately. The melodic hymn that we are familiar with today was composed by William J. Kirkpatrick in 1895, and published in that year.
It is sung with either hymn tune, depending on what denomination you are from.
Away in a manger,
No crib for His bed
The little Lord Jesus
Laid down His sweet head
The stars in the bright sky
Looked down where He lay
The little Lord Jesus
Asleep on the hay
The cattle are lowing
The poor Baby wakes
But little Lord Jesus
No crying He makes
I love Thee, Lord Jesus
Look down from the sky
And stay by my side,
'Til morning is nigh.
Be near me, Lord Jesus,
I ask Thee to stay
Close by me forever
And love me I pray
Bless all the dear children
In Thy tender care
And take us to heaven
To live with Thee there
It doesnt get better or more devotional than that!
“Away in a Manger” is always the first carol that children are taught. *Away in a Manger *was originally published in 1885 in a Lutheran Sunday school book as a poem. Two years later, James Murray published it as “Luther’s Cradle Hymn” giving rise to the misconception that the words were penned by Martin Luther himself.
In the United States, music of the hymn “Flow Gently, Sweet Afton” (originally a Scottish tune) was applied to the poem almost immediately. The melodic hymn that we are familiar with today was composed by William J. Kirkpatrick in 1895, and published in that year.
It is sung with either hymn tune, depending on what denomination you are from.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Never heard the manger being a Eucharistic symbol before…maybe…or maybe it just denotes the humble circumstances of his birth.
Swaddling clothes were how babies were recieved into the world back in the day…still practiced in some cultures…my wife’s culture, Czech, wrap the babies fairly tightly for the first few days…weeks. I don’t think there’s the death symbolism alluded to here.
Ya know, Jesus PROBABLY wasn’t born in a stable. Mary and Joseph probably were not rejected from the house they went to…which was probably a family member of Joseph. The word translated as INN (no room in the inn) simply means guest room…place where travelers lodged…it’s the same word in greek that’s used for UPPER ROOM of Last Supper fame. My scenario…Mary and Joseph show up at a relatives house…maybe even weeks or months before the baby was born (all we know is sometime after arrival the baby was born)…the guest room of the house was too crowded for a birth so Jesus was born in either the common living area (a raised platform above the ground…animals on the ground…a feeding trough (manger) on the raised platform…that or a cave attached to the house in which the animals NORMALLY would have stayed overnight…except when they were calving in the spring and would have been left out overnight with shepherds.
This scenario paints a humble birth…but not as stark as most people imagine.
Swaddling clothes were how babies were recieved into the world back in the day…still practiced in some cultures…my wife’s culture, Czech, wrap the babies fairly tightly for the first few days…weeks. I don’t think there’s the death symbolism alluded to here.
Ya know, Jesus PROBABLY wasn’t born in a stable. Mary and Joseph probably were not rejected from the house they went to…which was probably a family member of Joseph. The word translated as INN (no room in the inn) simply means guest room…place where travelers lodged…it’s the same word in greek that’s used for UPPER ROOM of Last Supper fame. My scenario…Mary and Joseph show up at a relatives house…maybe even weeks or months before the baby was born (all we know is sometime after arrival the baby was born)…the guest room of the house was too crowded for a birth so Jesus was born in either the common living area (a raised platform above the ground…animals on the ground…a feeding trough (manger) on the raised platform…that or a cave attached to the house in which the animals NORMALLY would have stayed overnight…except when they were calving in the spring and would have been left out overnight with shepherds.
This scenario paints a humble birth…but not as stark as most people imagine.
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peary1
Guest
The best way to interpret the Bible is to take it at face value.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
At face value…the bible doesn’t mention a stable or a cave…so, using what’s at hand…I think the stable or cave scenario just doesn’t fit.The best way to interpret the Bible is to take it at face value.
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peary1
Guest
“And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were in the same country shepherds watching, and keeping the night watches over their flock. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by them, and the brightness of God shone round about them; and they feared with a great fear. And the angel said to them: Fear not; for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, that shall be to all the people: For, this day, is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David. And this shall be a sign unto you. You shall find the infant wrapped in swaddling clothes, and laid in a manger.” (Luke 2: 7-12).
It’s not specific, but it is implied that it was a stable of somesort. You don’t find a feeding trough inside of a house. That was not permitted. In fact the word presepio (Nativity Scene) comes from the Latin verb praesepire (to enclose, to hedge, to fence) and today it means manger or crib. Besides, it has been a tradition of the Church since its earliest days to portray the birth of Jesus in a stable or creche. The earliest representation of the Nativity can be seen in a fresco found in the catacombs of St Priscilla, 2nd century AD, portraying the Mother and Child, the Three Wise Men and Saint Joseph or perhaps the prophet Isaiah, and above a star with eight points.
It’s far better to take the Bible at face value, especially when you have such things to back it up. The tradition is not as far-fetched as you seem to believe.
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Auriel
Guest
My preemie was swaddled too in the hospital. But Baby Jesus was not wrapped in a nice fluffy blanket, they were linen strips. The Greek word used there was espargonosen, the same word used for the burial linen after his death.
I had forgotten why they would have carried it with them. SO I looked up ancient Jewish customs. It would not be uncommon for someone to become ill or die when traveling on long journeys back them. They had to be prepared for anything and had strict specific customs regarding the dead. The body would have to be wrapped in order to continue their journey. If they could afford it, these linens were carried with them by wrapping them around their waist. It probably belonged to Joseph.
Also it was a sign of royalty, to wrap a baby in that manner. Royal children would be washed in water with a little salt, then wrapped for a short time. So that the child would grow free from crookedness, and rule straight in all his ways.
And since I am not catholic and the majority are who are posting, Here is something from a catholic bible, or was it Apocrypha.? Anyway, from the Wisdom of Solomon:
Also found an old post here. LOL forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=286045
I think sometimes when we read the bible we look at it with our Modern eyes. Kind of kewl to look at it from past customs and traditions.
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RSD
Guest
The old fashioned mangers were actually a nice size and shape to hold a baby. Probably about as clean as almost anything they could have put the baby in- licked clean by hungry animals, day after day. I do not believe that there was any Eucharistic symbolism here, because the mangers were for animals to eat from, not for people. I think the inclusion of this detail was for the shepherd to identify the baby.
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Auriel
Guest
The most important part is that he was Born.
But it is cool to look at all these things.
I meant to include this last night as part of my post. It is from the page of three Catholic Professors of Scripture and Theology, I think they are on one of the catholic radio shows.
ARTICLE: The Meaning of Jesus’ Swaddling Clothesthesacredpage.com/2008/12/christmas-star.html
But it is cool to look at all these things.
I meant to include this last night as part of my post. It is from the page of three Catholic Professors of Scripture and Theology, I think they are on one of the catholic radio shows.
ARTICLE: The Meaning of Jesus’ Swaddling Clothesthesacredpage.com/2008/12/christmas-star.html
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KathleenGee
Guest
If it wasn’t important, the Angel Gabriel would not have mentioned the placement of Him in a manger…He used words that mean ‘pay attention’…implying deeper significance as well…his placement a sign…among the animals a sign…the fact it was the lowly shepherds who first came in…
God many times comes to the lowliest…Mary appeared next to a garbage dump in Lourdes…
God many times comes to the lowliest…Mary appeared next to a garbage dump in Lourdes…
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Actually, on this aspect you’re quite wrong…you did often find feeding troughs inside homes…and animals were kept inside homes…seperate from the common living space, but still there. This practice was not only done in the middle east, but in Europe as well. The house where my grandfather was born in Italy had a section of the house in which animals were kept.
You are correct…take the bible at face value…Jesus was laid in a manger because there was no room in the UPPER ROOM (read guest room)…no mention of a stable at all…
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Nita
Guest
Altho this doesn’t tie in with the OP’s request for Eucharistic symbolism, it is a passage that has always struck me as a prophecy that Our Lord would be born in a stable setting.
**Isaiah 1:3a The ox knows its owner, and the ***** (substitute “donkey” since CAF won’t allow the other word!) its master’s crib
**Isaiah 1:3a The ox knows its owner, and the ***** (substitute “donkey” since CAF won’t allow the other word!) its master’s crib
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peary1
Guest
The Bible translations never say “guest room”. They say ‘inn’ - a place for travelers to stay, the same as we have today. Animals were kept inside another part of the house dwelling or outside. The house or room may have been divided, or there was a lower room where the animals were kept. They were not kept INSIDE the same house area as where the family lived. And if they owned any land, it was outside on the outskirts of town, and that is where animals were kept. The same as it is today.
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KathleenGee
Guest
#37…another Catholic post that reflects the historical and cultural background or context you must know to understand the bible correctly…no wonder it took many, many people many, many years to put the New Testament together as well as compiling the chosen books of the OT.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Using the word “Inn” is a VERY POOR translation…the Greek word used that is here translated “INN” is the same word used later for the Upper Room of Last Supper fame. We’re not discussing a doctrinal issue here. I just have a different view of Joseph and how he took care of his family. As I see it Joseph and Mary left Nazareth MONTHS before she was due…after all…it was a 90 mile journey. He stayed with family and probably set about working his trade while there. When Mary’s time came the guest room had people in it so she was taken to another part of the house…near where the animals were kept (quite often houses were built over caves…or had an area where animals were kept)…so, in the glow of familial love in a crowded house Jesus was born. Note that when the Magi arrived they go to a HOUSE to see Jesus. This, to me, shows a very responsible Joseph taking care of his little family.
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peary1
Guest
Luke 2:7:
NEW AMERICAN BIBLE: She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION: and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE: And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
THE MESSAGE BIBLE: While they were there, the time came for her to give birth. She gave birth to a son, her firstborn. She wrapped him in a blanket and laid him in a manger, because there was no room in the hostel.
THE AMPLIFIED BIBLE VERSION: And she gave birth to her Son, her Firstborn; and she wrapped Him in swaddling clothes and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room or place for them in the inn.
NEW LIVING BIBLE TRANSLATION: She gave birth to her first child, a son. She wrapped him snugly in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no lodging available for them.
KING JAMES VERSION: And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION: And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION: she gave birth to her first-born son. She dressed him in baby clothes and laid him on a bed of hay, because there was no room for them in the *inn. *
NEW KING JAMES VERSION (REVISED): And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
NEW CENTURY VERSION: She gave birth to her first son. Because there were no rooms left in the inn, she wrapped the baby in pieces of cloth and layed him in a feeding trough.
21ST CENTURY NEW KING JAMES VERSION: And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling clothes and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the* inn.*
AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION: And she brought forth her firstborn son; she wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the inn.
STRONGS LITERAL TRANSLATION BIBLE: And she brought forth her son - the first born, and wrapped him up and laid him down in a manger because there was not a room for them in the guest chamber.
CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION: she gave birth to her first-born son. She dressed him in baby clothes and laid him on a bed of hay, because there was no room for them in the *inn. *
NEW KING JAMES VERSION (REVISED): And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
NEW CENTURY VERSION: She gave birth to her first son. Because there were no rooms left in the inn, she wrapped the baby in pieces of cloth and layed him in a feeding trough.
21ST CENTURY NEW KING JAMES VERSION: And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling clothes and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the* inn.*
AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION: And she brought forth her firstborn son; she wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the inn.
STRONGS LITERAL TRANSLATION BIBLE: And she brought forth her son - the first born, and wrapped him up and laid him down in a manger because there was not a room for them in the guest chamber.
DARBY BIBLE TRANSLATION: and she brought forth her first-born son, and wrapped him up in swaddling-clothes and laid him in the manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
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