Awkward situation..how to get out?

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for all the replies to this twisted situation. One of the major issues is the one stated above. Jane pities the situation Kate is in and realizes she is stooping really low out of desperation but regardless, she is not comfortable seeing Kate so onto her husband. Interestingly enough, Kate tones it down a lot when Sam is around.

Another problem is that it is mostly Kate who initiates the meetups and though they are all mutual friends now, initially Kate and Joe established a connection through some personal ventures. Joe was always rather indifferent to her presence but Kate insited Joe and the family visit them since the kids are all of similar ages and whatever other similarities. Things seemed ok at first, until Kate started getting pushy about meet-ups (I.e inviting herself over without the rest of the family) at which point her intentions became more apparent and now both Joe and Jane would want to get rid of her but because of the kids and the unassuming husband it is not easy to suddenly cut off contact.

For now, Jane and Joe have decided to avoid visits and any contact as much as possible hoping Kate gets the hint…but like an OP mentioned, she may not…

If you tell someone, “Oh, gosh, this is not a good time…sorry, Kate!” and she does not get the hint, then someone that thick will have to handle the more blunt: “Kate, we’ve passed it over in the past, but we really don’t like how you’ve given yourself permission to invite yourself over, and especially since you don’t include Sam. We’re going to insist that you stop that. If we want to host you, we’ll call you. Otherwise, do not just drop by. We don’t want to have to ask you to leave again.”

If she won’t take “no” for an answer, it is she who ruined the friendship, and she can have that in her lap. There is no reason to apologize about it, and no reason to hide your reasons. “We have personal boundaries, Kate won’t live by them, and since we are not in the business of re-training adults, we really aren’t interested in a close relationship any more. It is unfortunate, but those boundaries aren’t up for discussion.”

 

[underacloud]

As a husband, I would not put my wife in a position where she has to watch another woman try to flirt (or worse) with me. Kids can always make other friends, or interact in situations where their parents don’t need to be together. So, just avoid spending time together as a couple, and let Jane be the go-between. Joe can make himself too busy to see them.

 

[Joe_5859]

I guess I wasn’t clear from the OP whether or not Joe recognizes that he is being flirted with. I know if it were me (and it’s not just because I am also a “Joe” ), the idea that the wife of a friend was flirting with me in front of both her husband and my wife would be so far removed from my mind that I probably would not notice it if it were actually happening to me. And if my wife tried to tell me that’s what was going on, my first impulse would be to think she’s reading into the situation.

That’s why I said Joe and Jane need to talk. They need to be on the same page and that might need to begin with Jane convincing Joe that there is even a problem that needs addressing.

 

[Bezant]

In the case being cited, both spouses think her behavior has clearly and repeatedly crossed a boundary, so I think what you’re thinking of is a different animal.

Not quite. We had a vague description of Kate’s behaviour and knew nothing about Joe’s reaction in the initial post. That’s why I advised against jumping to conclusions.

Yes, there is such a thing as innocent repartee that could be seen as flirting, but I would hope that if it ever happens that one of the targets or targets’ spouses gets upset about it, you’d all cut it out immediately, let alone if neither one of them liked it.

I don’t take it personally – at the end of the day she’s with me. But that’s off topic, anyways.

 

[amoremseram]

Joe should one day confide to Kate that he has herpes.

In all seriousness, I think the challenge here is that Joe blowing off Kate may actually be increasing Kate’s attraction to him (given her present behavior).

If Kate is the kind of woman I think she is, then she will be turned off by signaling weakness and neediness. So for example, when Kate is asking Joe something, Joe can say something like, “I don’t know - I can’t make up my mind, I need to ask Jane. I can’t do anything without her. etc. etc.” There is also a study that a husband who does traditionally female chores ends up getting less sex (I’m not a woman, so I don’t know for sure if that is indeed a turn-off). So he can say things like “I need to do the dishes and the laundry.”

Also agree that Joe should be very demonstrative of how much he loves Jane. And never ever be alone with Kate, not even for the most casual reasons like getting coffee or what - always have Jane or even Sam present.

 

[EasterJoy]

Not quite. We had a vague description of Kate’s behaviour and knew nothing about Joe’s reaction in the initial post. That’s why I advised against jumping to conclusions.

I don’t take it personally – at the end of the day she’s with me. But that’s off topic, anyways.

When she said “becomes very obvious even to Jane (Sam may or may not be aware)”, it sounded as if Joe was the first of the couple to sense the issue, not the last.

I’m in the camp that says that “inappropriate” behavior is in the eyes of those who have to behold it. If no one present thinks a thing of it, then probably it does not cross any lines. If that sense changes for someone, well, then people usually adjust so that everyone can be comfortable. It isn’t that hard, and most people don’t find it any terrible burden to be sensitive to what behaviors their social companions do and don’t enjoy.

 

[Bezant]

Interestingly enough, Kate tones it down a lot when Sam is around. Things seemed ok at first, until Kate started getting pushy about meet-ups (I.e inviting herself over without the rest of the family) at which point her intentions became more apparent and now both Joe and Jane would want to get rid of her but because of the kids and the unassuming husband it is not easy to suddenly cut off contact.

For now, Jane and Joe have decided to avoid visits and any contact as much as possible hoping Kate gets the hint…but like an OP mentioned, she may not…

In that case Joe should continue to be aloof and boring. After Kate arrives uninvited Joe and Jane can tell her they’re not ready to entertain but will call her and Sam next time they arrange a proper get-together. If she insists anyway they should politely but firmly refuse. When visiting Joe becomes inconvenient and boring it will probably deter her efforts even if she doesn’t catch on.

 

[Bezant]

When she said “becomes very obvious even to Jane (Sam may or may not be aware)”, it sounded as if Joe was the first of the couple to sense the issue, not the last.

I think that’s over reading it, but it’s irrelevant now that the OP has clarified the situation somewhat.

I’m in the camp that says that “inappropriate” behavior is in the eyes of those who have to behold it. If no one present thinks a thing of it, then probably it does not cross any lines. If that sense changes for someone, well, then people usually adjust so that everyone can be comfortable. It isn’t that hard, and most people don’t find it any terrible burden to be sensitive to what behaviors their social companions do and don’t enjoy.

Within reason. When one person bends over backwards just to avoid offending the other…that’s manipulation. Understanding and compromise should be shared, not the exclusive right of the offended one(s).

 

[Bezant]

Joe should one day confide to Kate that he has herpes.

Overkill!

 

[NoveNotturna]

I.dont know how Jane is expected to endure a social occasion with a ‘friend’ who spends the time flirting with her husband - right in front of her! There are some situations that are intolerable and that do not qualify as ‘friendship’. This is one of them. To have the conversation is difficult because it is embarassing & will mist likely be denied & Joe mist likely being blamed by Sam as having ‘tickets’ on himself, or Jane blamed for misinterpreting things. Such a situation is playing with fire & one where everyone should have known to avoid. Why can’t Joe just catch up with Sam? If Sam & Kate want to know why, then Jane & Joe could explain it to them. Very difficult though if Joe does not see a problem with the situation or actually enjoys the attention…

How I wish I’d listened to my gut back in March and addressed my concerns openly when I found myself in this very same circumstance. I had a “Kate” persistently insisting herself to my “Joe” to a point where in just a matter of weeks of her constant barrage of vulgar innuendo and lewd imagery she texted/IMed him, she’d managed to manipulate his thoughts from “I love my wife, she makes my life better, brings me closer to God, and without her my life would be dreary” to “My wife is an intolerable controlling expletive who chokes me with a leash, and who wants to decide who I can and can’t talk to.” Yes, he is responsible for taking the bait and choosing to have an affair, but I feel that it was her persistent temptations that placed him at the crossroads in the first place.

If Joe is in agreement with Jane that Kate is crossing the line. Both should directly address the problem as soon as it is being expressed. Say Kate makes a veiled innuendo, seize the chance and tell her, as a united front, that this kind of comment is neither appropriate nor welcome. If she denies it, cite similar instances and state how she should be aware of his she words her thoughts, and that they are coming across in a way that makes you both uncomfortable. If once warned, she persists, it is time to say goodbye to the friendship.

If this Kate is anything like the woman who imploded my life this year, she is too self-absorbed, prideful, and shameless to resist the challenge or care about who she hurts as long as she gets her way. Skirting the issue out of politeness is setting your marriage in the middle of a minefield.

I wish I had the benefit of going back in time to approach things in a much different way. If i had listened to my gut, i would have never, ever allowed the snake to coil herself around my husband.