[B]Catholic and Islam[/B]

[Frere]

You’re correct in one sense and yet i don’t know that you clarify the situation for the OP. You as a being consist of one person. The fact that you are a son or daughter of a mother and father is essential to your psyche, but not your ontological nature. Your mother and father on not consubstatial with you. If you are married, as much as you and your spouse imitate the Holy Trinity, your spouse is still not consubstantial with you. You are in essence one single being consisting of one single person.

Actually we are consubstantial, only not perfectly, first because of nature as ‘creature’, second because of sin. If we were not, we would not ‘recognize’ each other. Even animals male and females, mothers and offsprings would not recognize each other if they were not consubstiantial. This applies of plants of the same species. Please note that God tries to show us this even by making us start our lives in our mothers womb. A mother and her child have fully one body, it only grow separate and eventually fully separate because of growth and size. And through independant lives, the substance may grow different as you says, and we may really appear not consubstantial.

We are one body, wounded by sin, which God is helping to restore and perfect.
Perfection open through ‘new birth’, this time from pefect parents. Why, because we have to be perfect sons/daughters. We can not be in heaven if we are not perfect. And since the 'rest of our body (father, mother) are not perfect, heaven is impossible for us unless we are associated to a perfect substance; God himself.

For this reason, Jesus said that unless we are born again, we can not go to heaven.
He adds that we must be born of the Holy Spirit, to point out that we need to be as holy and perfect as God to enter Heaven.
It is also said that at the end God will be ‘all in all’, to indicate the perfection that will be found in all things.

If being sons and daughters was not important to our nature, not only we would not have been created as such, but we would not go to heaven. Our ‘sonship’ is exactly what God is saving in us. So it is very essential to our ontological nature. Please let me know if I am getting the word ‘ontology’ wrong…

God bless

 

[brianwalden]

Actually we are consubstantial, only not perfectly, first because of nature as ‘creature’, second because of sin. If we were not, we would not ‘recognize’ each other. Even animals male and females, mothers and offsprings would not recognize each other if they were not consubstiantial. This applies of plants of the same species. Please note that God tries to show us this even by making us start our lives in our mothers womb. A mother and her child have fully one body, it only grow separate and eventually fully separate because of growth and size. And through independant lives, the substance may grow different as you says, and we may really appear not consubstantial.

We are one body, wounded by sin, which God is helping to restore and perfect.
Perfection open through ‘new birth’, this time from pefect parents. Why, because we have to be perfect sons/daughters. We can not be in heaven if we are not perfect. And since the 'rest of our body (father, mother) are not perfect, heaven is impossible for us unless we are associated to a perfect substance; God himself.

For this reason, Jesus said that unless we are born again, we can not go to heaven.
He adds that we must be born of the Holy Spirit, to point out that we need to be as holy and perfect as God to enter Heaven.
It is also said that at the end God will be ‘all in all’, to indicate the perfection that will be found in all things.

If being sons and daughters was not important to our nature, not only we would not have been created as such, but we would not go to heaven. Our ‘sonship’ is exactly what God is saving in us. So it is very essential to our ontological nature. Please let me know if I am getting the word ‘ontology’ wrong…

God bless

Philosophically, there is no such thing as consubstantial but not perfectly.You say many true things, but you’re wrong in saying that they mean that everything is consubstantial in the philosophical meaning of the term. Don’t trust me, go find an expert Thomist on the forum.

I’m sorry to disagree with you, but what you’re asserting makes the creed essentially meaningless. The uniqueness of the creed is the statement that Christ is consubstantial with with the Father. If that merely means that Christ shared some sort of related existence stemming from the father, then the creed is meaningless.

You may be more correct ontologically than you are in talking about substance. Let’s hope a real Thomist will come along with some clarification. I don’t know enough to go in-depth about this.

 

[Frere]

Philosophically, there is no such thing as consubstantial but not perfectly.You say many true things, but you’re wrong in saying that they mean that everything is consubstantial in the philosophical meaning of the term. Don’t trust me, go find an expert Thomist on the forum.

I’m sorry to disagree with you, but what you’re asserting makes the creed essentially meaningless. The uniqueness of the creed is the statement that Christ is consubstantial with with the Father. If that merely means that Christ shared some sort of related existence stemming from the father, then the creed is meaningless.

You may be more correct ontologically than you are in talking about substance. Let’s hope a real Thomist will come along with some clarification. I don’t know enough to go in-depth about this.

I am not good on ‘heavy’ terms. However, I examine the Creed carefully, and I am very confortable with it, all versions. It is simple, Father and Son share full existance. He is the Father of the Son and vice versa. You can not have one without the other, so they are one. Look carefully at the ‘words’ and see. I am not complicating anything, I am rather saying that it is not as complicated as we usually assume and encourage others to assume.

As about three in one concept, it should not be difficult for a Muslim to understand as every muslim has one mother and one father and nothing can destroy this fact. Sin tries to destroy the relationship, and causes us to see ourselves as separate beings, but God is more powerful than sin. From the beginning, God teaches us to see ourselves and live as one Man, but we insists on being many men. St. Paul started out persecuting what he saw as followers of Jesus, but Jesus told him that it is Him: "why are you persecuting ME?’ Paul was in chock, but when he recovered, he started preaching the good news that humanity is being saved from its desintegration, that in Christ we are one Body. Unfortunately, many Christians still see themselves as Christians, and so they are seen as Christians. When we will be seen as Christ, the world will believe for as the Lord said, when we are one, then the Lord will believe in Him.

Also, let’s try to use simple terms, as heavy terms are not required for baptism to be valid. This also will be easier for our Muslim friend.

God bless

 

[KathleenGee]

Consubstantial means only one thing:…that God the Father and Jesus Christ are with and in the same substance…“I Am Who Am”…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The word, consubstantiate, does not exist outside the Catholic/Orthodox Church. It was created by the Church in the mid 300’s.

 

[sedonaman]

St. Thomas Aquinas addresses Muslim questions catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/rationes.htm . Chapters 3-6 are about the OP question.

 

[MartinJordan]

St. Thomas Aquinas addresses Muslim questions catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/rationes.htm . Chapters 3-6 are about the OP question.

I liked this part of St. Thomas Aquinas’ discourse:

***God, however, is not of a fleshly nature, requiring a woman to copulate with to generate offspring, but he is of a spiritual or intellectual nature, much higher than every intellectual nature. So generation should be understood of God as it applies to an intellectual nature. Even though our own intellect falls far short of the divine intellect, we still have to speak of the divine intellect by comparing it with what we find in our own intellect.

---

MJ

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Sedoman…for the link to St. Thomas Aquinas…

 

[CEM5]

maybe like this, if they are (the father, the son, the holy spirit) the one same thing that is “GOD”. why they still asking and talking each other?

hello islamfellow,

God is a mystery, as the Scriptures explain, - He is so much bigger than us, that with our limited human minds, it is difficult to grasp the concept of One God; Three Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Son is the Word, from which all things were created. When you read Genesis, you see the passage “let us create man in our image”. Ask yourself this: who is the “us” and “our” - these are plural - more than one. Right away we see God described in the plural as “we” and “us”.

In the Gospel of John, it is further explained:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it…
14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

The Word was with God.

The Word was God.

The Word became flesh and lived among us = Jesus.

A father’s only son = Jesus, the Word, God

Jesus is God incarnate, meaning God came to us in the human form by the power of the Holy Spirit. Because of this, Jesus is called the Son of God, the only “begotten” son of God.

God is Father, because He created all things, and we are His children. This is the first “person” of the Trinity of God.

God is Jesus, the Son, who is also the Word. He came to us to show us the way and to redeem mankind from the stain of original sin. This is the second “person” of the Trinity of God.

God is the Holy Spirit, the sanctifier who blesses us with “gifts” of the Holy Spirit – graces needed to become holy and have love in our hearts for all as God wants us to become. This is the third “person” of the Trinity of God.

God is ONE GOD - not three gods. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are always one, never separate, therefore, they are always together and can communicate as one. They do not “speak” as we humans do.

Because Jesus is God, as well as human, Jesus has two natures: fully divine as God, yet fully human as Jesus. As God, Jesus is the image of His Father in heaven, and this is why in Scripture Jesus is called “Son of God”. As a human, with all the human frailities of suffering on this earth, Jesus is called the “son of man”.

Since God cannot be separate - recall, God is one, Jesus in His divinity was always with the Father and Holy Spirit.

Look at a three leaf clover: One “plant” yet three “leaves” all united and known as a clover.

I like to use this analogy that St. Patrick used to try to explain the Trinity. I have also added my own thoughts on this as well: The leaves are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the stem that grounds this clover to the earth is like the physical, human body of Christ - now the glorious, immortal, resurrected body of Christ. Christ is the embodiment of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God is described as the Alpha and Omega, and Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

Blessings,
CEM

 

[thedarknight]

and about ‘Gospel’, maybe what do you trying to say are Bible not Gospel. in Islam, there are particularly different between ‘Gospel’ and Bible. Gospel are pure made from God, sent by Angel, and received by Jesus to tell the followers. but Bible (in my ways of view) made from the person after Jesus, yes maybe the part of it still have some relativeness with the pure Gospel. but in Islam view nowadays Gospel are terribly corrupted by ordinary human thinks, not God. if the Gospel made by god, we as ordinary human can added anymore things to it. like your pope always do.

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, brother. Thank you for speaking with openness.

The same argument could be said of the Qur’an, as Islam’s prophet Muhammad was illiterate and it was his followers, who many years later, wrote his words down.

 

[sedonaman]

… but in Islam view nowadays Gospel are terribly corrupted by ordinary human thinks, not God. if the Gospel made by god, we as ordinary human can added anymore things to it. like your pope always do.

Give us an example of Gospel corruption that the pope has done.

 

[schaick]

hi all, I’m Muslim and I’m interest about the phrase inside of your Catechism of the Catholic Church that say about:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

well anyway i know that we adore the different god, maybe the same but difference in how we get it from our different religion. i just cant get it about the Trinity. and back to the topic, if we adore the different God, can i say that your “Catechism of the Catholic Church” was totally wrong???

*anyway I’m sorry if I’m wrong in writing, I’m not American…

I would agree- Muslims and Christians do not worship the same GOD.

Allah denys that he has a SON. Allah tricked and deceived people into believing that Jesus was crucified when he says in fact that Jesus was not. Because of allah’s trickery a supposedly new and supposedly false new religion was formed. Now allah in the Quran says Muslms are to go fight and subdue or kill Christians who were tricked into their religion?!?

There is only one being that would do all this and it is not GOD of the Bible.

 

[schaick]

“At that moment, a voice was heard by the followers of St. John the Baptist, ‘This is my Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased’. So God Himself is introducing Himself now as Father. The Holy Spirit also appeared over Christ in the form of a dove. So we have here a new introduction of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

so if God said that Jesus is the son, why it make you think that Jesus as a God? is that God introduce Jesus as a God? i think not. and about the holy spirit, it called angel in Islam. is that holy spirit say that they are god? In Islam view that they are messengers of God. they have no free will, (unlike humans or jinn) and can do only what God orders them to do. An example of a task they carry out is that of testing of individuals by granting them abundant wealth and curing their illness. Believing in angels is one of the six Articles of Faith in Islam.
yes we need to believe it too, but not as God.

A few Bible verses:

Jesus:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
…
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 14
7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10
30I and the Father are one."

Holy Spirit, see the part I made bold:

Acts 5
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? **You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” **

 

[schaick]

and about ‘Gospel’, maybe what do you trying to say are Bible not Gospel. in Islam, there are particularly different between ‘Gospel’ and Bible. Gospel are pure made from God, sent by Angel, and received by Jesus to tell the followers. but Bible (in my ways of view) made from the person after Jesus, yes maybe the part of it still have some relativeness with the pure Gospel. but in Islam view nowadays Gospel are terribly corrupted by ordinary human thinks, not God. if the Gospel made by god, we as ordinary human can added anymore things to it. like your pope always do.

Your Quran validates the Gospel that was written shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven.

Paul was referencing the Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

When did Paul live? Ca. 5 - 67 AD. So the Gospels that we have today actually existed before 67AD.

Did you know that the Gospel message is actually told in the Old Testament?

 

[Arch_Angel]

hi all, I’m Muslim and I’m interest about the phrase inside of your Catechism of the Catholic Church that say about:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

well anyway i know that we adore the different god, maybe the same but difference in how we get it from our different religion. i just cant get it about the Trinity. and back to the topic, if we adore the different God, can i say that your “Catechism of the Catholic Church” was totally wrong???

*anyway I’m sorry if I’m wrong in writing, I’m not American…

Salam brother and ramadan kareem,

First in regards to the COC and salvation of our Muslim brothers; what specifically are you interested to know? Are you looking for references as to why Catholics believe in this?

Regarding the trinity I recommend these audio lectures by Archbishop Fulton Sheen. You will find a lot of topics pertaining to the divinity of Christ, the blessed Trinity, Baptism etc.

americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/sheen.htm

I also have some faith clips on my Youtube Channel:

youtube.com/user/ArchMikel?feature=mhee

What I find interesting is how Islam views salvation for non-Muslims (especially Christians and Jews). Would you mind elaborating on that?

 

[ConstantinePX]

Through historical research It is my personal opinion that Muslims do not Worship the Abrahamic God in the sense that YHWH/Elohim/Devs/Dominvs as Jews and Christians do, as (and again, not to offend but this is my observational opinion) their worship is rooted in Arabic paganism and the worship of Muhammed’s tribe’s patron God, Al-lah.

That doesnt mean I believe Muslims are destined for hell, just as the Buddhist monk is allowed entry into heaven, I believe any pious person regardless of faith will at the every least be given a chance to petition God for entry before they are judged.

Muslims and Christians both have history, legitimate history, and legitimate theology. Which is right is up to personal opinion, as its kinda hard to disprove Theology with Theology and such…

Back more on topic of the Trinity, I suppose one way to look at how/why Jesus spoke to Yahweh in the heaven above, is to use the trinity as a model for the autonomy of God: God the Father being the Mental part, Jesus being the Physical part, and the Holy Spirit being the Soul part.

All 3 parts of our bodies intercommunicate to function as one being-- our soul with our body and mind, our mind with our body and soul… and so on. Does this help?

 

[Bwtby]

^ Oh for God’s sake, we all, meaning every religion, just mind as well admit we are pagan worshipers.

 

[ConstantinePX]

^ Oh for God’s sake, we all, meaning every religion, just mind as well admit we are pagan worshipers.

I didnt mean to offend, but let me clarify. The HISTORICAL context and initialization of Islam, I believe, was rooted in Pagan culture. HOWEVER, that does not mean, the modern/descendants are worshipping the arabic pagan god. I merely believe their religion was founded through the mixing of Arabian Paganism and what Muhammed had encountered in his travels and talks with Christians, monks and what have you. It is perfectly reasonable to say that a modern Muslim does look to the same God as a Christian does.

My mistake for not clarifying, sorry.

 

[Bwtby]

I didnt mean to offend, but let me clarify. The HISTORICAL context and initialization of Islam, I believe, was rooted in Pagan culture. HOWEVER, that does not mean, the modern/descendants are worshipping the arabic pagan god. I merely believe their religion was founded through the mixing of Arabian Paganism and what Muhammed had encountered in his travels and talks with Christians, monks and what have you. It is perfectly reasonable to say that a modern Muslim does look to the same God as a Christian does.

My mistake for not clarifying, sorry.

No you didn’t offend me, I’m just saying. You say Muslims are pagan. Muslims call Christianity pagan. Atheists call Christianity pagan. Protestants call Catholicism pagan. So, we all are just pagans. Everyone of us should just admit it.