Babies are Beautiful.

[jmjZelie]

Bitterhope,
The housing discrimination is absolutely true. We are at the limit in terms of our family size for renting an apartment legally. If we have another baby, we would not be able to renew our lease. I doubt they would evict us right away, though.

Guess who those laws were created to dissuade from renting?

Yep, large Catholic families.

Somehow, despite the origin of these laws, they get to stay on the books because people pretend it is about fire codes. Imagine, telling families they have too many people in their family so they may not rent a home, and pretending this is not discrimination.

The job thing is also true. This past time my husband interviewed (he got the job) I asked him to please not tell anyone how many kids he has, because I know it has been used to discriminate against people for jobs. Well, they asked him, even though it was illegal to ask that, and he answered honestly. I thought, well, there goes that opportunity. Thankfully, they did come around on it, but people who make the decisions were actually trying to dissuade HIM from the opportunity because they believed that the cost of living was too high for our large family to manage, and they delayed making the offer until he wrote an awesome letter about how he is the super bestest guy for the job and they would be stupid not to hire him. Then they relented and gave him the offer. He got the job on his merits, but almost didn’t because they felt that they could exclude him based on family size vs. cost of living.

 

[Xantippe]

Emergencies–first thing mentioned is if you didn’t have X number of kids you would have prevented whatever went wrong. A local family lost 2 children in a house. They were able to escape with 7 children. First responders and neighbors all talked about if they didn’t have so many kids they could of all gotten out. I drove a friend to the ER because her son fell off a ladder, broke some ribs, got a concussion and needed stitches. The dr never asked why her four year old was on the ladder, just says that stuff like that happens and it’s nobody’s fault. The mom in the next bed (separated by a curtain) had an older kid that wrecked his bike and needed stitches. The same ER nurse and dr that were reassuring this mom of one were telling the other mom that if she hadn’t been so distracted taking care of her other three kids her son wouldn’t have gotten hurt. Four kids are just too many to keep watch of. My friend was shocked and asked me if people really do say those things to me because she had never noticed until that ER visit. She have the dr a piece of her mind too. The mom in the next bed thanked her for it. Normally moms of many don’t have people step in for us like that. A local Mennonite family a couple years back had a buggy accident and lost their six children and a neighbor child. Yes, if they hadn’t had so many kids they wouldn’t have lost them all. I guess somehow if there were only two kids the dump truck wouldn’t have hit the buggy or whatever.

The accident thing isn’t completely made up out of thin air.

Here’s an old study from the 1980s:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3375855

“The relationship between accidents and number of children in the household was assessed in 10,394 children surveyed at ages 5 and 10 years. The analyses suggest that living in a household with 3 or more children during the preschool period increases a child’s risk of experiencing accidents that result in hospitalization; and that living in a household with 4 or more children increases the risk of such accidents to school-age children. The number of older rather than younger children had the greatest impact on accident risk. The observed odds ratios suggest that children with 4 or more siblings have 80% to 90% more injuries resulting in hospitalization than only children. The proportions of children with one or more accidents (regardless of the place of treatment) and with repeat accidents were unrelated to family size. Environmental differences between families of varying size accounted for the association with hospitalized accidents.”

So, yes, 80-90% more accidents for children with four or more siblings compared to onlies.

Here’s a newer one from 10 years ago:

“Children from Group 2 [5 kids and up] were less often attended to by an adult (44.5% vs. 62.0%) and more often were in the presence only of other children at the time of the accident (27.0% vs. 10.5%).”

“The risk for accidents is increased among children from families with four or more children. The adequacy of child supervision in large families is impaired. There is a relative delay from the time of the accident until these children are brought for treatment.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16190477

 

[bitterhope]

Yes, we are searching for a home now since we are moving in a short time. Not much luck. Even hotels will say that we need three rooms but can’t have 3 because only 2 adults. It’s an everyday thing that most people don’t even notice. We own this house and I might stay with the kids until housing on post opens up. There is a long wait list because of our family size too. Military families tend to be larger. Our current base has an average of 4 kids per family, but still a lot of assignments–the really good and family friendly ones for the most part–are not open to large families. It’s better than what many experience in the civilian world though.

Honestly, I don’t think people must have as many kids as possible. Even if most couples are actively trying to have a lot of kids, most don’t or can’t. That’s why around the world throughout history large families drew so much attention. It’s a blessing but it’s a blessing the world convinces people is a curse instead. Having a lot of kids is a fear for so many people. Very few people fear only having one or two kids. For whatever reason people seem to look at kids as an accessory that’s only fashionable in certain doses. They see them as little dolls that are a way to continue their family line. Parents with lots of kids tend to see babies as one more soul for heaven, one more blessing to lead other souls to heaven! I’ve never thought about will my DNA continue in this world for infinity. My focus is above this world. This world will end but hopefully God will have more souls in eternity.

My inlaws only had two children. They were wonderful parents. They have a beautiful family. They allowed God to work through them and accepted what He gave them. I fought fir years with God. I did not WANT to accept whatever He gave me, but what choice did I have? NFP did not work for me. Birth control was wrong. I was a young bride so total abstinence wasn’t happening. Ok, I got the message. Babies are a gift. They are beautiful. They are one more soul for God. If a family isn’t willing or isn’t able to have a large family it really doesn’t affect me and I honestly wouldn’t notice. I’m too busy trying to take care of my own family to notice someone else’s. If people make rude comments, they aren’t worthy of your time and attention. But to try to say the prejudices and the barriers are there and the same for families of all sizes just isn’t true. Rude comments are one thing. Discrimination is something else.

 

[bitterhope]

The accident thing isn’t completely made up out of thin air.

Here’s an old study from the 1980s:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3375855

“The relationship between accidents and number of children in the household was assessed in 10,394 children surveyed at ages 5 and 10 years. The analyses suggest that living in a household with 3 or more children during the preschool period increases a child’s risk of experiencing accidents that result in hospitalization; and that living in a household with 4 or more children increases the risk of such accidents to school-age children. The number of older rather than younger children had the greatest impact on accident risk. The observed odds ratios suggest that children with 4 or more siblings have 80% to 90% more injuries resulting in hospitalization than only children. The proportions of children with one or more accidents (regardless of the place of treatment) and with repeat accidents were unrelated to family size. Environmental differences between families of varying size accounted for the association with hospitalized accidents.”

So, yes, 80-90% more accidents for children with four or more siblings compared to onlies.

Here’s a newer one from 10 years ago:

“Children from Group 2 [5 kids and up] were less often attended to by an adult (44.5% vs. 62.0%) and more often were in the presence only of other children at the time of the accident (27.0% vs. 10.5%).”

“The risk for accidents is increased among children from families with four or more children. The adequacy of child supervision in large families is impaired. There is a relative delay from the time of the accident until these children are brought for treatment.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16190477

I don’t buy it. I grew up in a family of 16 and had foster siblings. None of us EVER had a broken bone, stitches, nothing. Only ER visits were health related. Out of my kids, one had stitches and that was from a kid that pushed him at Mass and he hit the edge of the pew. Out if the moms I know in real life, it does not match either.

 

[bitterhope]

You know what? Even if that study WERE accurate, how does that make it alright to belittle moms who lose kids have kids injured?

 

[JimG]

I don’t buy it. I grew up in a family of 16 and had foster siblings. None of us EVER had a broken bone, stitches, nothing. Only ER visits were health related. Out of my kids, one had stitches and that was from a kid that pushed him at Mass and he hit the edge of the pew. Out if the moms I know in real life, it does not match either.

Growing up, I was one of five siblings. There was also one miscarriage, whom we count in the family tree. Mom and dad plus five kids did not seem like a particularly large family to me. I was number two, and it was nice to have brothers and sisters of different ages. There was a 14 year range between the oldest and the youngest. And the older ones took care of the younger ones. It was just part of growing up. And now that I’m older, I’m still glad to have those brothers and sisters We like to get together.

I’m surprised to hear that people comment about other people’s family size. It just seems odd that anyone would make it their business. I’ve got friends who had families with 12 children. And I’m not talking Catholic families!

 

[bitterhope]

Growing up, I was one of five siblings. There was also one miscarriage, whom we count in the family tree. Mom and dad plus five kids did not seem like a particularly large family to me. I was number two, and it was nice to have brothers and sisters of different ages. There was a 14 year range between the oldest and the youngest. And the older ones took care of the younger ones. It was just part of growing up. And now that I’m older, I’m still glad to have those brothers and sisters We like to get together.

I’m surprised to hear that people comment about other people’s family size. It just seems odd that anyone would make it their business. I’ve got friends who had families with 12 children. And I’m not talking Catholic families!

Yes! We live far apart but when we get together it’s amazing. Even some if our foster siblings still gather together. I don’t know how I would have made it through Daddy’s funeral without them. One of my brothers died and honestly if was even harder losing him. Sibling relationships are irreplaceable.

Most big families I know aren’t Catholic either. My paternal grandparents were converts and they had 14 (I think?) kids.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, we are searching for a home now since we are moving in a short time. Not much luck. Even hotels will say that we need three rooms but can’t have 3 because only 2 adults. It’s an everyday thing that most people don’t even notice. We own this house and I might stay with the kids until housing on post opens up. There is a long wait list because of our family size too. Military families tend to be larger. Our current base has an average of 4 kids per family, but still a lot of assignments–the really good and family friendly ones for the most part–are not open to large families. It’s better than what many experience in the civilian world though.

Honestly, I don’t think people must have as many kids as possible. Even if most couples are actively trying to have a lot of kids, most don’t or can’t. That’s why around the world throughout history large families drew so much attention. It’s a blessing but it’s a blessing the world convinces people is a curse instead. Having a lot of kids is a fear for so many people. Very few people fear only having one or two kids. For whatever reason people seem to look at kids as an accessory that’s only fashionable in certain doses. They see them as little dolls that are a way to continue their family line. Parents with lots of kids tend to see babies as one more soul for heaven, one more blessing to lead other souls to heaven! I’ve never thought about will my DNA continue in this world for infinity. My focus is above this world. This world will end but hopefully God will have more souls in eternity.

My inlaws only had two children. They were wonderful parents. They have a beautiful family. They allowed God to work through them and accepted what He gave them. I fought fir years with God. I did not WANT to accept whatever He gave me, but what choice did I have? NFP did not work for me. Birth control was wrong. I was a young bride so total abstinence wasn’t happening. Ok, I got the message. Babies are a gift. They are beautiful. They are one more soul for God. If a family isn’t willing or isn’t able to have a large family it really doesn’t affect me and I honestly wouldn’t notice. I’m too busy trying to take care of my own family to notice someone else’s. If people make rude comments, they aren’t worthy of your time and attention. But to try to say the prejudices and the barriers are there and the same for families of all sizes just isn’t true. Rude comments are one thing. Discrimination is something else.

We’ve had a thread or two where people talked about how hard it is to find their place in their parishes as a childless married couple. I think there are work arounds for that, but having children (especially school age children) does offer one an instant social life that is hard to create otherwise, especially living as a transplant in a new area. With kids in school, we get birthday party invites from people we don’t even know.

I suspect it’s socially easiest in the US as a whole to be a median US married couple with 2.0 children, one girl, one boy, no learning disabilities, no other disabilities, etc–and how many of those are there, really? Although, within the rarefied Catholic context, two can get you the side eye. I remember once meeting a nice new couple in our community about our age that was about to have a fourth child. The social temperature dropped about 10 degrees when they asked how many kids we had and I said two…True story. (I think I blurted out something about our oldest being a tough kid–we were in the thick of autism therapy at the time.) Since we had our third child, I can’t help but notice that the mothers of 4+ children are just a little friendlier than they used to be…

 

[bitterhope]

We’ve had a thread or two where people talked about how hard it is to find their place in their parishes as a childless married couple. I think there are work arounds for that, but having children (especially school age children) does offer one an instant social life that is hard to create otherwise, especially living as a transplant in a new area. With kids in school, we get birthday party invites from people we don’t even know.

I suspect it’s socially easiest in the US as a whole to be a median US married couple with 2.0 children, one girl, one boy, no learning disabilities, no other disabilities, etc–and how many of those are there, really? Although, within the rarefied Catholic context, two can get you the side eye. I remember once meeting a nice new couple in our community about our age that was about to have a fourth child. The social temperature dropped about 10 degrees when they asked how many kids we had and I said two…True story. (I think I blurted out something about our oldest being a tough kid–we were in the thick of autism therapy at the time.) Since we had our third child, I can’t help but notice that the mothers of 4+ children are just a little friendlier than they used to be…

Rude people will be rude regardless. If that’s how people treat you it’s best to stay away and ignore them. They aren’t worth your time, attention or energy. Stop worrying about how others see you and worry about how God sees you. When it’s hard, think about how Hod sees THEM. But again, when have you experienced discrimination because you have three kids?

 

[Xantippe]

You know what? Even if that study WERE accurate, how does that make it alright to belittle moms who lose kids have kids injured?

Nobody said it was.

But, a larger family is a risk factor for accidents for children.

Here’s another study on children 0-14 that mentions accidents and number of children. This one is from 2004:

“The most important risk factors were gender, time mother spends at home, level of maternal education, paternal alcoholism, birth order, more than five siblings and previous injury to a sibling.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15005967

 

[bitterhope]

Nobody said it was.

But, a larger family is a risk factor for accidents for children.

Here’s another study on children 0-14 that mentions accidents and number of children. This one is from 2004:

“The most important risk factors were gender, time mother spends at home, level of maternal education, paternal alcoholism, birth order, more than five siblings and previous injury to a sibling.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15005967

No you won’t convince me of this no matter how many studies or statistics you post. It’s a prejudice that drs set out to prove. Many statistics and studies are that way

 

[Xantippe]

Rude people will be rude regardless. If that’s how people treat you it’s best to stay away and ignore them. They aren’t worth your time, attention or energy. Stop worrying about how others see you and worry about how God sees you. When it’s hard, think about how Hod sees THEM. But again, when have you experienced discrimination because you have three kids?

These are perfectly nice people. It’s just that with three kids, I was suddenly somehow more worthy of respect.



Not offended, just observing.

The same sort of thing comes up all the time with the transition from 0 to 1 kids. I am addicted to advice columns, and the issue comes up all the time. A woman who has her 1 child in advance of her friend group will often lose all of her friends, whereas conversely a woman who doesn’t have a child when all of her friends are having babies is often going to find herself left out.

When people have children, they often need to get a completely new set of friends.

That’s not discrimination in a legal sense, but it’s life and it’s sad.

 

[bitterhope]

No it’s not discrimination. It’s not a barrier. That is a transition and where resiliency helps out.

 

[utunumsint]

Interesting study on whether the number of siblings has an impact on mortality rates.

paa2015.princeton.edu/uploads/150805

Indeed, our results do not support the idea of a strong negative impact of family size on mortality. While we do observe some disadvantage of children born at higher parities, after controlling for birth order the effect of family size is not statistically significant among women except at high parities, and it is of small to moderate size for men. We also provide results from models that control for possible confounders using information on multiple births that cause an exogenous shock to family size and exogenously shift the number of siblings. These estimates on the exogenous effect of an additional sibling suggest no impact of growing up in a larger family among women and less clearly for men.
Summing up, according to our findings, even if having many siblings does have a detrimental effect on child health, this impact is not long lasting and universal. The mechanisms causing a disadvantage of children raised in large families seem to be primarily at work only in countries where families receive only limited support from the welfare state.

God bless,
Ut

 

[bitterhope]

Well, I’m going to watch the eclipse with my kids. Beautiful night here. Great to relax together. Also good to be able to share the same exciting event with dad while he’s at training. Always cool to do things as a family even when we are geographically apart. I encourage people regardless of how many are in your family to make time to do things together. It builds bonds and fosters resiliency. That’s why when life sucks you have the strength to keep going and find joy and peace in the trenches.

 

[Xantippe]

Interesting study on whether the number of siblings has an impact on mortality rates.

paa2015.princeton.edu/uploads/150805

God bless,
Ut

Interesting. There’s a also a protective factor from autism in being a 3rd or 4th child, despite the fact that paternal age is a risk factor for autism.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I’m going to watch the eclipse with my kids. Beautiful night here. Great to relax together. Also good to be able to share the same exciting event with dad while he’s at training. Always cool to do things as a family even when we are geographically apart. I encourage people regardless of how many are in your family to make time to do things together. It builds bonds and fosters resiliency. That’s why when life sucks you have the strength to keep going and find joy and peace in the trenches.

We’re about to do the same thing. (One of husband’s many hobbies is amateur astronomy.)

 

[bitterhope]

We’re about to do the same thing. (One of husband’s many hobbies is amateur astronomy.)

Terrific! My son won a telescope from the library for a reading program. Putting it to good use.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Well, I’m going to watch the eclipse with my kids. Beautiful night here. Great to relax together. Also good to be able to share the same exciting event with dad while he’s at training. Always cool to do things as a family even when we are geographically apart. I encourage people regardless of how many are in your family to make time to do things together. It builds bonds and fosters resiliency. That’s why when life sucks you have the strength to keep going and find joy and peace in the trenches.

Good point, that. Back when DH and I were dating and later engaged, we’d read the same book and then discuss it, sort of our very own book club. We lived 4 hours apart until we got married, so it was a great way to keep conversations going and be doing the same thing together, even if geographically separate.

 

[TheFraggle]

Sigh

Nope…all set.

I’m blessed with three.

Some parents are good with a smaller sized family. We’re done having kids.

If that means I don’t trust God then I probably shouldn’t be Catholic anymore.

Believe it or not there is a reality when it comes to not being able to cope with a large family and financial concerns, mental and emotional health are some of them.

It’s completely ridiculous to state that we aren’t trusting in God or are open enough to life because we don’t want to go beyond a certain number of children.

I can promise you I would be an absolutely miserable human being if I had another baby.

How do I know this? Because I’m maxed out with the three I have now.

My husband and I have been open to life but having so many kids in such a short time with no break or end in site is too much.

It’s Just Too Much.

Let me repeat that.

It’s Just Too Much.

Call me a bad Christian…tell me I’m not open to God’s plan because I’m not willing to keep going…do it…I dare you.

Heck, imply that I don’t love my children or believe that babies are beautiful or that any children are beautiful.
Tell me I’m just not open to life.

Because coming on a forum and declaring that us moms need to be open to life and not be afraid is not helpful in the least.

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me “you have your hands full” I would no longer be so worried about our very real financial situation.

Honestly…it’s post like these that make me want to scream and give up.

Just throw in the towel, get an IUD and throw it back into the face of every self-righteous Catholic out there.

The Catholics that read these threads and see the desperation some of us moms have and can only say we are too afraid and aren’t trusting in God’s plan for us.

I’ve been open to life for the entirety of my marriage.

I found out I was pregnant with a baby before I was married and gave up my career to get married, have my daughter and convert to Catholicism…instead of abortion or some other horrible decision I could have made.

I continued to be open to life and had 2 more kids in less then 3 years…I reached a level of desperation and was talked off the ledge from getting an IUD or getting my tubes tied in favor of abstinence by not only the compassionate people on this site but also my husband and my closest Catholic friends.

By the grace of God I’ll keep holding on for dear life to my faith.

But I’m through having kids. Done. It’s over. No more. Never again.

And it’s nonsense like this post that remind me that there are people out there that people just don’t get it.

I understand NFP. I know the mental problems that come along with parenting. I am not against NFP, but there are many Catholics that use them with a contraceptive mentality. My brother met a couple that used it for years for fear of having children saying they weren’t ready. It was clear, however, that they were (again I repeat) using it with a contraceptive mentality.

Now, I am not saying you do. Do not misunderstand me on this, and I did not write this on a self righteous note, or tone, but with a passion and love for children.I am not bragging either. My post is a positive response to children, and the harm with saying what’s wrong with one more?

I love children, and the church is empty. Devout Catholics are just too afraid to have them. Now, I am not saying that there are people on here that have them, or are like this, but there simply is not many children in church anymore. And it’s sad. Not everyone has your story. Not everyone is not financially insecure, or mentally about to have a breakdown. Some simply don’t view children as a blessing. One is a blessing, but two is a curse to some people.

I don’t have kids, yes. Some users on here have said this about me. But my sister and brother do. And they would encourage good upstanding Catholics to have them as well. It’s like saying you can’t talk about politics unless you’re running for office. What a silly concept.

You feel harmed by my post, but that is not the intent. I wrote this from the heart. I’m sorry you don’t see it that way. Thank-you for sharing your story. Do not feel stress. If you felt that from my post, again I say, that was not my intent. Just realize that not all messages are all or nothing.

God bless.