Babies At Mass

[Tom317]

Tom. Your words are deeply hurting those who are trying to discuss this situation.
I understand you have been hurt but we are not “An eye for an eye” anymore.

Please try to use words that do not sting. The words that you are choosing are not reflecting your feelings but rather your passions. (anti-child to a mother is very hurtful) It might be a better idea to pause and reflect the words before you post.

You will get more flies with honey than vinegar. At this point, having people rethink their actions is being blocked by the words you are using. You will not change their hearts by digging your feet in.

God Bless you brother. May God soften your heart in His way, not yours.

I have not been hurt, but it is nice that you care, thank you.

For me, this is about the kids and life, and while I acknowledge I am passionate, so are others on this thread and I do not see anyone simply acknowledging that they cannot know the life or heart of another person. It is brutally unfair for people to come down on those parents and kids and I will continue to defend people who are trying to be Catholics.

I would be willing to venture a guess that every parent on this thread has had children who have totally upset some people around them more then once, and I highly doubt those people appreciated the dirty looks and attitudes when their kids acted up. Yet, those same people are now judge and jury over a plethora of parents and kids who are merely weak sinners like all of us. I’d also venture a guess that some of the people on this thread are “guilty” of doing things in Mass that THEY should not be doiung as well, and yet I doubt they would appreciate being condemned about it.

We are one family, one body, Catholics need to remember that fact when they see a kid acting up, or see a parent perhaps failing a bit in their duties and have some love for those people, rather then blanket condemnation with statements of banning kids from Mass, or making them sit in the back or sending them to the crying room all because thoise parents can’t handle a little noise.

 

[Tom317]

Tom. Your words are deeply hurting those who are trying to discuss this situation.
I understand you have been hurt but we are not “An eye for an eye” anymore.

Please try to use words that do not sting. The words that you are choosing are not reflecting your feelings but rather your passions. (anti-child to a mother is very hurtful) It might be a better idea to pause and reflect the words before you post.

You will get more flies with honey than vinegar. At this point, having people rethink their actions is being blocked by the words you are using. You will not change their hearts by digging your feet in.

God Bless you brother. May God soften your heart in His way, not yours.

Tell me, what about the adults sitting behind my family at Mass when they talk to my kids or giggle at them or instigate bad behaivor in my young ones? Should I smile and pray for them, or should I condemn them in my heart? I say I should smile and pray for them because they clearly love children and are filled with joy with being near our family…yet those same people often cause my kids to act up and people across the aisle might think my wife and I are lousy parents.

Don’t you see, we simply cannot know the circumstances behind anything that happens with someone else, we absolutely must react with love, compassion and understanding…that is what Christ demands of us. I am frustrated with people who refuse to have the love of Christ in their heart towards other members of Jesus’ Body. No matter how imperfect we are, we are members of ONE body and we all deserve love, not condemnation, not dirty looks and not judgmental attitudes. It is hard enough to live in this world with a large family (people give us grief everywhere), much less when we walk into the Lord’s Church, where we should feel the most love and acceptance, yet often leave feeling alone and unwanted–rejected out of hand.

Similarly, if it is fair for people to do that to parents. Then let us have a clear look at their life, see what they do right and wrong, when do they attend Mass, how often go to confession, what are their sins, etc…then we could condemn them for being imperfect Catholics, right? Yet, who wants to have their lives opened like that?

 

[tadly]

Hypocrisy fills me with righteous anger - my children need peace and unfortunately they can’t even find it in the Lord’s house. Makes me angry. I’m not perfect.

No anger is righteous.
Anger is one of the seven deadly sins.
As long as you continue to be angry, you sin.

None of us are perfect, and I know you are good. If we all calm our anger and see it as a righteous cross, we have peace.

You can’t make them do better. Christ forgives eventhough we are lowly and sin over and over. Have peace.

 

[tadly]

Don’t you see, we simply cannot know the circumstances behind anything that happens with someone else, we absolutely must react with love, compassion and understanding…that is what Christ demands of us. I am frustrated with people who refuse to have the love of Christ in their heart towards other members of Jesus’ Body.

You are not showing the love of Christ with the harsh words you are using here. The people who disagree with you are also the body of Christ. You are not reacting with love.

 

[Tom317]

You are not showing the love of Christ with the harsh words you are using here. The people who disagree with you are also the body of Christ. You are not reacting with love.

I am not using harsh words, that is your view.

 

[Jennifer123]

No anger is righteous.

Just as an aside:
“Looking around at them with anger and grieved at their hardness of heart, he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and his hand was restored.”
Mark 3:5

Do not be fooled into some sort of false piety - righteous anger is true indeed.

God Bless.

 

[Marauder]

No anger is righteous.
Anger is one of the seven deadly sins.
As long as you continue to be angry, you sin.

Actually there is such a thing a righteous anger. Jesus showed anger at the money changers in the temple. The proper translation of the deadly sin is wrath:
1.strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire. 2.vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.
Anger in and of itself is just an emotion, its when that anger overwelms and turns into wrath or wrathlike anger it becomes a sin.

 

[tadly]

I am not using harsh words, that is your view.

As is the Anti-child view on this thread yours.
Only Christ can judge us. Would Christ infer a mother is anti-child?

You cause no peace while doing this. All here are part of the Body of Christ.

 

[tadly]

Just as an aside:
“Looking around at them with anger and grieved at their hardness of heart, he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and his hand was restored.”
Mark 3:5

Do not be fooled into some sort of false piety - righteous anger is true indeed.

God Bless.

But is it better to rationalize your anger or forgive and make your anger your own?

I grieve for the hardness of heart on both sides here.

 

[Tom317]

As is the Anti-child view on this thread yours.
Only Christ can judge us. Would Christ infer a mother is anti-child?

You cause no peace while doing this. All here are part of the Body of Christ.

I have called no specific person anti-child, rather I have said I see anti-child attitudes reflected strongly in this thread, and I hold with that view. Me thinks you protest…

 

[marci]

Tom, you are my brother in Christ. I truely believe you are a very kind, charitable and good intentioned person. If you think that pointing out bad behavior, whether it be that of unruley children, disrespectful teenagers, or adults who engage in sinful activities, ie pornography, homosexual lifestyles, is wrong than how do you expect us to teach our children anything.

And before you say that equateing children misbehaving with pornography is ridiculous, I will tell you that I agree, but you have to start at the beginning. Bad behavior is realative to your age, so to speak. If you don’t learn discipline and obedience as a child, how can you hope to lead a disciplined and obedient life as an adult.

I think that the fact that times have changed (as you said in an earlier post) with reguard to what parents have to give to their children in this modern world is a bad thing. I think that we should all be raging against that secular “of the world” machine that continues to break down the family and lead our children astray. I do not accept that this is the way things have got to be.

I homeschool my kids. We study religion everyday. We pray; litanies, the rosary, the angelus. I do everything I can to keep my kids in the world but not of it. No, we don’t live in a cave, and I like you, have to constantly be aware of what the secular world wants to teach my children. I also realize that I am luckier than many, I have been given this oportunity to raise my kids at home, to teach them at home, to be the greatest infuence on their education and their character. I thank God for the opportunity that he has given me, and I pray for all of the families out their who don’t have that ability.

We should always, as Catholic parents, steer away from what is common, secular, or popular in modern society. We should hold fast to the universal and timeless teachings of the church. Just because society has drifted in modern times toward the direction of “if it feels good, do it”, or “we shouldn’t judge other peoples lifestyle” doesn’t mean that we as catholics should accept it.

I am thrilled to see families with lots of children at mass. I truely believe that is the only hope for our future. On that we can agree. All I am saying is only good can come from parents demanding respect and reverence from their children while in mass.

Tom, I hope you understand that I mean no disrespect toward you or anyone else. I think that this is a subject which can be discussed without creating anger or hurt feelings. I hope I have done neither, if I have than I am sorry.

In Christ,

Marci

 

[Tom317]

But is it better to rationalize your anger or forgive and make your anger your own?

I grieve for the hardness of heart on both sides here.

You refuse to see anything, you just keep spweing this hard heart junk that has no basis if fact. Open your heart to what we are saying, then get back to us.

 

[tadly]

You refuse to see anything, you just keep spweing this hard heart junk that has no basis if fact. Open your heart to what we are saying, then get back to us.

You need to make your anger your own. Understand that overcoming it is all that you can really do.

Peace.

 

[Tom317]

You need to make your anger your own. Understand that overcoming it is all that you can really do.

Peace.

Okay my master, whatever you say.

Now, please go back and actually read what we have posted, then get back to us.

 

[Jennifer123]

But is it better to rationalize your anger or forgive and make your anger your own?

I grieve for the hardness of heart on both sides here.

Oh I do forgive those that are very cruel to me and my children, I couldn’t go to Communion if I didn’t, but it still makes me sad.

I can’t imagine though Christianity without some sort of righteous anger, what with all the abortion, euthanasia, etc. It’s too bad that we’ve let the secular lie that we aren’t to judge anything deceive us as a people into inaction. :twocents:

Blessings.

 

[tadly]

Oh I do forgive those that are very cruel to me and my children, I couldn’t go to Communion if I didn’t, but it still makes me sad.

I can’t imagine though Christianity without some sort of righteous anger, what with all the abortion, euthanasia, etc. It’s too bad that we’ve let the secular lie that we aren’t to judge anything deceive us as a people into inaction. :twocents:

Blessings.

We are angry about any cruelty and I agree so much. It makes me sad too.
No one should be cruel to children. No one should be cruel to anyone. The sad part is when it builds and no one wins.

I’m sure that when those people where cruel to you, you smiled and said a prayer. First, it doesn’ let them know you are upset (then the devil smiles) And second, you were so much bigger than them.

(and know that you are raising the next generation of Catholics and can teach them better than the mamas who raised those that are cruel to your children)

God Bless you and give you peace.

 

[Tom317]

Tom, you are my brother in Christ. I truely believe you are a very kind, charitable and good intentioned person.

And, I think the same of you.

If you think that pointing out bad behavior, whether it be that of unruley children, disrespectful teenagers, or adults who engage in sinful activities, ie pornography, homosexual lifestyles, is wrong than how do you expect us to teach our children anything.

It is not the place of stranger adults to point out my failings as a parent because they have no clue if I have truly failed or not. That is the crux of this matter. Would you open your life for inspection and correction by strangers?

And before you say that equateing children misbehaving with pornography is ridiculous, I will tell you that I agree, but you have to start at the beginning. Bad behavior is realative to your age, so to speak. If you don’t learn discipline and obedience as a child, how can you hope to lead a disciplined and obedient life as an adult.

I agree that kids need disipline and training, my contention is that is a parents job and we simply cannot know if they are doing well or not because we do not know their personal circumtances. There are so many variables, we just cannot know for sure, so we must simply accept them in love, not judgment.

I think that the fact that times have changed (as you said in an earlier post) with reguard to what parents have to give to their children in this modern world is a bad thing. I think that we should all be raging against that secular “of the world” machine that continues to break down the family and lead our children astray. I do not accept that this is the way things have got to be.

I agree completely, yet we must not be blind to the trials people face, because then we are simply cold robots. Love is the way, not cold condemnation.

I homeschool my kids. We study religion everyday. We pray; litanies, the rosary, the angelus. I do everything I can to keep my kids in the world but not of it. No, we don’t live in a cave, and I like you, have to constantly be aware of what the secular world wants to teach my children. I also realize that I am luckier than many, I have been given this oportunity to raise my kids at home, to teach them at home, to be the greatest infuence on their education and their character. I thank God for the opportunity that he has given me, and I pray for all of the families out their who don’t have that ability.

That is awesome, congratulations and I will pray that the Lord helps you continue your great work for Him, which you are doing no doubt at all.

We should always, as Catholic parents, steer away from what is common, secular, or popular in modern society. We should hold fast to the universal and timeless teachings of the church. Just because society has drifted in modern times toward the direction of “if it feels good, do it”, or “we shouldn’t judge other peoples lifestyle” doesn’t mean that we as catholics should accept it.

Agreed and I don’t. I just feel that we must not judge others because we cannot know their lives and their trials and they might be doing everything they can. It is a harsh world, and Jesus lived in the real world, not a world of the Catechism. People who are starving don’t care much about what the Church teaches, only that the Church has enough love to help and to understand their troubles.

I am thrilled to see families with lots of children at mass. I truely believe that is the only hope for our future. On that we can agree. All I am saying is only good can come from parents demanding respect and reverence from their children while in mass.

I agree that lots of kids are most significant hope. I do not agree about the second part because Catholics who feel condemn will simply avoid going to Mass because they don’t want the condemning attitudes. We must keep in mind that the parents have brought their kids to Mass, and that is a victory for Christ and the world even if they let their kids mis-behave.

Tom, I hope you understand that I mean no disrespect toward you or anyone else. I think that this is a subject which can be discussed without creating anger or hurt feelings. I hope I have done neither, if I have than I am sorry.

And the same to you.

 

[tadly]

Okay my master, whatever you say.

Now, please go back and actually read what we have posted, then get back to us.

Praise be to Jesus Christ
Now and forever.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

 

[Tom317]

Praise be to Jesus Christ
Now and forever.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Same to you brother…ooops, Master.

I am teasing.

 

[tadly]

Same to you brother…ooops, Master.

I am teasing.

Teasing?
I’m sorry if I don’t see it that way.