Babies that die at birth

[jdehaa]

When a baby dies at birth does the baby go to limbo and then never really sees God? If a baby is fortunate enough to be baptized before it dies, is it still a baby in heaven?

 

[giuseppeTO]

When a baby dies at birth does the baby go to limbo and then never really sees God? If a baby is fortunate enough to be baptized before it dies, is it still a baby in heaven?

That is the traditional, although not dogmatic teaching of the church.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

When a baby dies at all, he or she goes right to Jesus’ arms!! (That’s my assumption, anyway) I mean, its a baby…where else would it go? God knows its a good place.

 

[NeedImprovement]

When a baby dies at all, he or she goes right to Jesus’ arms!! (That’s my assumption, anyway) I mean, its a baby…where else would it go? God knows its a good place.

I believe there is very much today favouring that assumption.

When a baby dies at birth does the baby go to limbo and then never really sees God? If a baby is fortunate enough to be baptized before it dies, is it still a baby in heaven?

Hi jdehaa.

I don’t know that the Catholic Church ever adhered to the idea of limbo, although a plausible argument could be made for it ( or something that resembled it) up until the time that Our Blessed Lord’s life, death, and ressurection opened the gates of Heaven for us.

Somewhere in the vicinity of April, 2007, the INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION published a document called THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED.

Here are several links to related articles preceded by excerpts from the first link:

"…In a long-awaited document, the Church’s International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an ‘unduly restrictive view of salvation’ ".

…‘People find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian,’ the document said.

…In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was ‘only a theological hypothesis’ and ‘never a defined truth of faith’ ".

reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSL2028721620070420

dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/limbo/index.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm

The entire document ,THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED, can be viewed here vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

My own personal opinion is that I think we’re focusing too much on the “human” and the dimension of “time” if we propose a baby is "still a baby " when it goes to heaven.

I recall the Gospel passage where some of Jesus’ listeners were asking if a hypothetical widow had been legally married several times on earth, whose wife would she be in Heaven . And He replied [Matthew 22: 29-30] :

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Angels are beings with intellects and wills fully formed and are fully conscious of who God is and who they are. And the holy Angels carry out God’s will perfectly.

To supply the proper context we could bear in mind that the Sadducees didn’t even believe in the resurrection and their question was asked at a time before Christ’s resurrection and before understanding of the differentiation between the particular judgement and the final judgement had been developed.

Although evolution of our physical human body takes place on earth, the human soul is created for eternity .

God Bless

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I believe there is very much today favouring that assumption.

Really? That’s interesting.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Limbo was always a theologoumenon–howsoever widespread–and never de fide.

I’ve been told so by Benedictine and Trappist monastic superiors who studied in Rome BEFORE Vatican 2.

 

[mardukm]

From my understanding, the theologoumenon on Limbo states that it is a temporary place. It is not a place of suffering, but of “natural happiness.” At the Endtimes, I think the state of Limbo is supposed to be eliminated, but the Church has not defined where the souls therein will go, but leaves it up to the Mercy of God. I think 99% believe that in the Endtimes, these children will be with God. In any case, as brother BpBasilphx stated, it has never been de fide.

 

[Fuerza]

From my understanding, the theologoumenon on Limbo states that it is a temporary place. It is not a place of suffering, but of “natural happiness.” At the Endtimes, I think the state of Limbo is supposed to be eliminated, but the Church has not defined where the souls therein will go, but leaves it up to the Mercy of God. I think 99% believe that in the Endtimes, these children will be with God. In any case, as brother BpBasilphx stated, it has never been de fide.

Actually, Limbo is said to be a part of Hell, and therefore eternal. It’s just that the souls there are spared most, if not all, of the suffering experienced by the rest of the damned and are even granted a certain degree of happiness. The only real “pain” is the knowledge that there is something better that will never be attained.

Remember also that while the Limbo of the Infants is merely an opinion, the “Limbo” of adults who die in original sin (not necessarily all who die without water baptism) is de fide as defined by the Councils of Florence and Lyons II. Those councils both state (and I’m paraphrasing here) “Those who die in mortal sin, or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” The only difference here is that the name “Limbo” has never been officially applied to this category of people.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Limbo wasn’t much debated until the feel-good 1970’s when people began to call into question what seemed “fair” or “unfair” about church teachings. Limbo has never been affirmed as an infallible doctrine of the church. However, It is an article of faith that those who die without Baptism, and in whose case the want of Baptism has not been supplied in any other way, cannot enter heaven. You cannot ignore how the Church teaches over the years on this. The great majority of the authoritative theologians of the Church, among them Peter Abelard, St. Bonaventure, St. Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, teach that infants dying in Original Sin suffer no “pain of sense,” but are excluded from heaven.

St. Gregory of Nazianzus (Or. in Sanct. Baptism 23, PG XXXVI:389), one of the Great
Eastern Fathers of the Church as well as St. Thomas Aquinas teach that such souls do
not suffer pain of sense because pain of punishment is proportioned to personal guilt,
which does not exist here. He says that those in limbo do not grieve because they cannot
see God any more than a bird grieves because it cannot be a king. “No, they rejoice because they share
in God’s goodness and in many natural perfections,” he says. The unbaptized in limbo know and love God
by the use of their natural powers, and have full natural happiness. (De Malo, 5:3; Sent. II d. 33 Q. 2 A. 2)

St. Thomas Aquinas, the Church’s principal theologian, further teaches that
unbaptized children do not suffer pain because of their privation. They are
not capable of the grace of the supernatural order, which is not owed to man
(the word “grace” itself denotes something “gratuitous” from God), but
possess a natural well-being that results from their being united to God by
their participation in His natural goods.

St. Augustine of Hippo, Pope St. Gregory the Great, and the Scholastic Theologians,
including the Seraphic Doctor St. Bonaventure and the Universal Doctor St.
Thomas Aquinas, the Seventeenth Ecumenical Council in 1438-1445) adopted a
canonized as a matter of faith: “the souls of those who die in actual Mortal Sin or only
Original Sin, thereupon descend into Hell, but to be punished with disparate
punishments.”

In 1794 Pope Pius XI confirmed the existence of Limbo as a place lacking the Beatific Vision, but without the pain of punishment. On October 29, 1951, in his Allocution to Midwives, Pope Pius XII declared, in conformity with the Council of Trent:

“In the present state there is no other way of communicating [sanctifying
grace] to the child who has not yet the use of reason [other than Baptism].
But, nevertheless, the state of grace at the moment of death is absolutely
necessary for salvation. Without it, it is not possible to attain
supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God. An act of love can
suffice * for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace
and supply for the absence of Baptism; for the unborn child or for the newly
born, this way is not open.”*

 

[NeedImprovement]

I found this page discussing the aforementioned document THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED , in counterpoint form, quite interesting:

catholicintl.com/catholicissues/Limbo.pdf

Here’s it’s conclusion:

“…As noted above, there was no better time than the present day – when
abortions worldwide have reached astronomical levels – for the Church to step in and
declare that the devil does not have the victory over the world’s aborted infants that he
thought he had. The pope’s approval of the ITC document allowing us to have hope for
the salvation of aborted infants rather than automatically consigning them to an eternity
without God should be received with joy and relief, not skepticism and ridicule. In the
final analysis, the eternal destiny of the human soul is not something with which we
should burden ourselves. The final decision is God’s, and God’s alone.”
Robert A. Sungenis, Ph.D.
May 15, 2007

In the event that some of the less informed of us might’ve thought abortion levels were not astronomical, here’s a glimpse at what’s going on in the US:

cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm

• The abortion ratios by state or area of occurrence ranged from 40 per 1,000 live births in Idaho to 776 per 1,000 in NYC.

physiciansforlife.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=848

Twenty-four percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion

Another way of expressing the statistic above is to say that one quarter of Americans are not being born any more. Anyone wishing to apply the concept of Limbo strictly according to the rule would be saying that, if the abortion rate remains the same, at least one quarter of all Americans will never see the face of God - even though they had never committed any personal sin.

It would take me a lot of mental gymnastics before ever pausing to consider the plausibility of such an idea… particularly considering that we were created to know, love and serve God. Do we remember which God we’re talking about…[Matt 19:14-15] …?..

Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” After he placed his hands on them, he went away.

Some of the comments posted by other members are also considered at the following link, along with a Pope John Paul II exhortation addressed to mothers of aborted babies from his 1995 Encyclical , Evangelium Vitae :
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/limbo_in_limbo.html

"I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. . . . The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. To the same Father and his mercy you can with sure hope entrust your child."

Finally, anyone who would care to read an amazing conversion story about the former leading abortionist of Belgrade, Dr. Stojan Adasevic (it even concerns some involvement of St. Thomas Aquinas [private revelation though]) would also find a little food for thought regarding the final destination of aborted babies…(at this link)
fmmh.ycdsb.ca/teachers/fmmh_mcmanaman/pages/abo.html

That article has been published in several catholic Newspapers and also appears on several other sites on the internet, such as jillstanek.com/archives/2008/11/stojan_adasevic.html

Let’s remember to pray for any expectant mothers who might be contemplating abortion.

God Bless

 

[Tradycja]

Infallible teachings related to babies not entering heaven:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442:

“Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people.”

Council of Lyons II, 1274
“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.” (Denzinger 464)

Council of Florence, 1438-1445:
“the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds” (Denzinger 694)

Pope Martin V, Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415 -
Proposition 6: “Those who claim, that the children of the faithful dying without sacramental baptism will not be saved, are stupid and presumptuous in saying this = Condemned.” Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 422

See this about quote says you can’t say I’m stupid or presumptuous for believing that unbaptized infants don’t go to heaven.

---

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, On Original Sin, Session Va:***
“If anyone says that recently born babies should not be baptized even if they have been born to baptized parents; or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins, but incur no trace of the original sin of Adam needing to be cleansed by the laver of rebirth for them to obtain eternal life, with the necessary consequence that in their case there is being understood a form of baptism for the remission of sins which is not true, but false:*** let him be anathema.”*** (Denz. 791)

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Although we cannot know what happens to these souls, we can trust in God’s mercy and have reason to hope that they are in heaven. The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(CCC) explains: “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.” (CCC 1261)

 

[Monica4316]

Limbo was never dogma. It’s just a theological idea…

what about Baptism of desire? - if a person wants to be baptized yet never gets the chance, they can still go to Heaven, as if they were baptized.

Maybe something like this applies to unbaptized infants as well? After all, they don’t have any personal sin.