I agree with elise, well said. I had mentioned in an early post about whether anti abortion ads would be permitted. I was speaking about graphic ads showing the reality. I don’t know of any country which has permitted such ads.
**THIS IS A MUST READ!!! AND BERNADETTEM **who started this thread please read this and respond. Connecting the animal rights cause to anti-abortion cause makes no sense and is misguided. You should be looking to the real sources that have created the atmosphere of tolerance and easy acceptance of abortion. Attacking other just causes does not advance the fight to end abortion.
Correction: 4elise, I’m sure that you meant to say that the **Catholic Vegetarian & Vegan Group at CAF is pro-animal rights and pro-life. davidmammola is pointing out that some people can be sympathetic to animal causes, yet are pro-choice and support legaliized abortion. And ***how some people may arrive ***that these two seemingly opposing stances–for “animals rights” and for “pro-choice, legalized abortion,” may have more to do with how they view sex, contraception, marriage, parenthood, etc., than how they feel about animals. **See this eye-opening blog: **conversiondiary.com/2008/…-pro-life.html
I appreciate your honesty about why you are concerned about your human status. If someone runs over a dog accidentally, the owner of that dog will most likely feel a loss and grieve whether or not you think it silly. If someone ran over my dog Id expect them to experience the same consequences that they would if they ran over a family member. It is not a matter of loving my dog more, it is that it can be equally a traumatizing event. You cant argue with emotions. I drive and it is perfectly possible to avoid running over anything. I dont respond well to people who think running over an animal is a small matter.And I’d ask in return that all those who use it be up front about their “animal rights” agenda.
Sorry, Marfran, but you’re simple wrong here. I’ve met such people. They exist. And they’re misguided.
Say what, Brother??? You gotta be kidding. I hope he was ex-communicated from the profession… (Thank God he was caught.)
I think that he left the program voluntarily. I wish that I was kidding.
Keeping animals as pets ***should be ***re-evaluated. Pet animals are not wild animals and are purposefully breed to live as domesticated, tamed animals.
And that’s where animal rightists have an objection; in the strict sense, they would claim we have/had no right to domesticate animals, which conflicts with the Catholic view on animal welfare.
Our civilization has progressed so much in the last few years. We now have superior alternatives to animal products, and we now understand how animal products negatively affect our health and contribute to disease. Raising animals for food also negatively impacts the environment, misappropriates resources–food feed to animals could go directly to feed people instead… So yes, I agree we do not need to raise animals for food or fiber. And Hemmingway once said that he hunted because it was better to take his aggressions out on animals instead of people. People who hunt do so for a lot of shadowy psychological reasons, and pass off their hunting as ecology management, desire to have “wild meat,” etc., but it’s a lot of BULL.
I disagree. I know many people who like the taste of venison. You just can’t buy it anywhere.
Have you read any of the Catholic and Christian books on animal rights?? Such as ***Dominion ***by Matthew Scully? tiny.cc/8o2Oo Are you familiar with the organization Catholic Concern for Animals? tiny.cc/F3AGP
No, I have not, but I’ll look into it. I’m just starting to do research for my Master’s degree thesis. Thanks.
You don’t seem to be an animal rights exremist. That’s a good thing.I appreciate your honesty about why you are concerned about your human status. If someone runs over a dog accidentally, the owner of that dog will most likely feel a loss and grieve whether or not you think it silly.
Where did you get that I might think it’s silly? I’m a little insulted, given that I’ve dedicated my life’s work to people and their pets.
If someone ran over my dog Id expect them to experience the same consequences that they would if they ran over a family member. It is not a matter of loving my dog more, it is that it can be equally a traumatizing event. You cant argue with emotions. I drive and it is perfectly possible to avoid running over anything. I dont respond well to people who think running over an animal is a small matter.
But there’s the rub…compensation wise, is it equivalent to run over (by accident) and kill a dog and run over and kill a human? In the extreme sense, some animal rightists would say they are the same. That’s my point. I don’t think a pet owner should be entitled to millions of dollars in compensation as might a spouse of parent of someone who had been run over.
If my vet was negligent in any way with any of my animals, I would want him punished for it.
I’d agree. However, as you are no doubt aware, there are many frivilous lawsuits out there and more than a few lawyers ready to sue at the drop of a hat. If compensation for a pet loss gets to the point where a pet owner can get hundreds of thousands or a million bucks for a medical error, perceived or real, malpractice premiums for veterinarians will soar. And guess what, so will the cost of veterinary care.
Presently, veterinary malpractice awards are limited to the cost of treatment and the replacement value of the animal. If some 'animal rightists" have their way, compensation for grief, pain and suffering, etc. can and probably will add thousands to these awards. Is that what you want to see? Do you want veterinary care costs to skyrocket?
I like hamburgers and meat too. Actually I love the taste. However its like saying since most people really like sex there should be no restrictions tied to it. Iam not okay with the fact that animals have to give up their lives so I can have meals which I can live without. Iam in the process of becoming a vegetarian since I believe animals being killed for meat constitutes unnecessary suffering of God’s creatures and thus is not compatible with the Catholic values I was raised with. Our dietary preferences are worthless when suffering can be prevented. I understand if you think Im judging you or being annoying, I know what it feels when people come and tell me how much better they are than me for giving up alcohol.
Actually, what you wrote seems a little hypocritical. If you’re concerned about eating meat resulting in animal suffering, why are you “in the process” of becoming a vegetarian? Why are you waiting if so many animals are suffering?
All the scenarios you mention of what would happen if animals’ status was elevated just do not seem bad to me. They dont show anything contrary to Catholic teaching, infact they focus on your superficial wants. There is nothing wrong for people being held accountable for pain and suffering experienced by others. The fact you and I like hamburgers means nothing in the greater scheme of things. Maybe you think this topic does not warrant serious discussion, but I feel very strongly about this.
What? You just wrote that you were going to give up meat, but the fact that we eat it means nothing?
On the contrary, this topic needs discussion. Where did you get the idea that I wouldn’t think so?
And you don’t see an increase in the cost of veterinary care for everyone that would be directly a result of increased litigation against veterinarians as a bad thing?
Youre wrong about why people use ‘‘animal’’ to describe criminals. Maybe some do for the reason you say, which is’nt so bad. Then how am I wrong? However most use it to convey a sense that the person is depraved, primitive, incapable of love and sympathy. Even reptiles have been shown to exhibit love to their owners. This might sound really strange but Ive even encountered some relatively affectionate snakes!
This is an excellent example of anthropomorphism. Snakes are not capable of being “affectionate”; they are not anatomically developed for those higher functions.
I hope I have been upfront enough for you about my agenda. Not ashamed of being associated with animal rights!
My apologies if you felt insulted but I honestly did get the impression you think it is silly like so many other people. Now I have confirmation you dont, good. However the tone of your post made it seem like you did not appreciate how an animals’s death affects humans. On the internet one cannot identify humour and sarcasm from tone etc so it is easy to misunderstand. You may value human life over animal life fair enough, but if you value humans you should also value those who care about non-human ones. Then an animal’s death does not seem so inconsequential when you realise how it can break a person’s heart. I realise you re a vet and good for you for helping animals. However I do find it strange your views on animals in light of this and this confuses me about you.You don’t seem to be an animal rights exremist. That’s a good thing.
Im not under any illusions here. If it is true what you say and the cost of vet care increases drastically then it would be a shame I suppose. But it s a trade off.You don’t seem to be an animal rights exremist. That’s a good thing.
Thanks Marfran…
I think being in support of the welfare of animals should accompany a pro-life attitude - and also being pro life should also include a position against hurting animals -
I just realised that I forgot to comment on what you said about me contradicting myself about using ‘‘animal’’ to describe disgusting criminals. I said it was not as bad if you or others actually use the term to refer to conscience. However I said that you were wrong that that is how the majority of people who use the term use it. Hope thats more clear.You don’t seem to be an animal rights exremist. That’s a good thing.
That’s acclimization and avoidance behavior of people they are not used to, which is an instict function, not an “emotion” as some people mistakenly think. Either way, I don’t particularly like snakes. It’s a rule in our clinic that we don’t see patients with less than 2 or greater than 4 legs. I refer sick snakes to a veterinarian in our area who sees lots of them.You may value human life over animal life fair enough, but if you value humans you should also value those who care about non-human ones. Then an animal’s death does not seem so inconsequential when you realise how it can break a person’s heart. I realise you re a vet and good for you for helping animals. However I do find it strange your views on animals in light of this and this confuses me about you.
I deal with animal death almost every day; both with the pets themselves and with the owners. I’m not quite sure where you are confused about my viewpoint on the value of animal (especially pet animal) life. Perhaps I could explain if I understood better what confuses you?
I dont live in America so frivolous lawsuits are not something I see much of. The ones Ive heard of have been worth it. Yes I may well be affected negatively if vet costs skyrocket but Id be happy to see less malpractice from vets. This doesnt happen often, but when it does it is devastating. If it is a detterant for vets and impetus for better health care which means less lawsuits to worry about.
And that’s one of the problems with the American health care system in terms of expense. Physicians are forced to practice “defensive medicine”, which drives up the cost for everyone. Perhaps if you lived here, you would better understand why this would be a very bad thing; there would be pets going without needed medical care, especially preventive care if the costs went up drastically.
Im not waiting. I ve cut out meat in a short space of time but cant call myself a vegetarian when I had fish for dinner last week. There are certain reasons to do with family tensions and living arrangements why I have not become vegetarian overnight. The thing is though im far from perfect in this aspect, i have the intention to make this happen in the very near future. I would not call someone a hypocrite if they came and told me they had the intention to change for the better but had not succeeded in reaching their goal as yet.
Sorry, but I do.
For every one person with your views who is willing to respectfully engage in a discussion about this there are too many others who write us off as being ‘‘softies’’ or ‘‘eco-terrorists’’ who dont care about the ‘‘proper’’ things. Thats my experience.
And dittos on the other side. There’s room for reasonable, calm discussion.
About the snakes thing, of course Im aware that the scientific view is that reptiles cant be affectionate. Thats why I said it was strange! But I have been ‘‘recognised’’ by snakes who saw me on a previous occasion and seen those who ‘‘nuzzle’’ their owners the way a cat would. Some who have been cared for well have been known to show preference for their keepers.
A trade off that would mean a significant number of pets wouldn’t receive any or just minimal health care. Is that worthwhile?
Yep.
You have my full support and understanding. Becomming a vegetarian or vegan “cold turkey” is applaudable, however, there is nothing wrong with a gradual transition, especially when one cooks for or eats with a family. It is easier to go “cold turkey” if you are single. A gradual transition–eliminating one item at a time, or trying new dishes and incorporating one at a time, will often have better long term results and relaspe is not as likely as going “cold turkey.” Vegetarianism, and more so veganism, is counter cultural and requires learning new ways of looking at food, learning new ways of cooking or “uncooking,” learning new recipes and new ingredients. (Its akin to living in a foriegn country and learning to eat AND cook a new cuisine.) The poster who called you a hypocrite for not going “cold turkey” is judgemental and has obviously not explored changing his diet or lifestyle, or he would not be so critical.
That would be me and that would be correct, except for the judmental part. If someone has such a belief and wants to do something to back it up, it’s fine with me; there’s not judgment involved there. As I stated, though,the two options are that one is not as dedicated to their “cause” as they represent, or that their position is hypocritical. If one believes that animal suffering goes on as a result of our eating meat and fish and that they believe that they’re not eating meat and fish will help, in some small way to alleviate some animal suffering and they don’t quit right now, IMHO if this is a priority for them then logistics will not stand in the way.
We live in a culture that purposefully hides the truth about our food, how it is made, cruelties inherent in the factory farming industry, etc. For a real eyeopener see the documentary film ***Food, Inc. *** tiny.cc/dEjOP This is NOT a film that advocates vegetarian or veganism BUT will make you think twice about what you are putting into your mouth. (Why are there so many E. coli outbreaks and what **chemical **does McDonald’s put into their hamburgers to reduce this risk?)
I don’t see where you have posted an argument or a relevant connection to the topic.Nobody here is talking about the PETA organization. Try looking into ***Catholic Concern for Animals *** tiny.cc/F3AGP and the other Catholic groups, books, and organizations.
Sailor: Here is your cheeseburger as made by God: tiny.cc/YjhOW The cheese, the burger, and the bun are all man made.
