Babies vs. Animal Rights

[SteveGC]

Is there something wrong with being frustrated because someone rejects God’s Word, instead making Him into her own image?

Actually, what I asked is if you are projecting that frustration onto the folks on this thread unnecessarily? Or do you think they are also the ones who are “rejecting God’s Word”?

So nobody has an opinion on the fact that GE will be using human embryos instead of lab rats?When companies like GE favor lab rats over human embryos, and there is no hue and cry over this on a Catholic board, there is something really wrong with the world

Um, what I asked was for the full context of the situation, and the quote in relation to that context. I think we’re all still waiting for you to provide that for us, as opposed to ranting about something we know nothing about, and therefore can not possibly offer you our opinion about it. Going just on what you offer us, I would say it’s despicable of GE to make that conclusion, but I’m sure I would want the full story so that I know what their actions and thoughts really are. Perhaps no one is ranting and raving about it on these boards because they haven’t heard about it yet?

I will continue to eat meat and wear fur. I am not a Hindu. The last time I checked, Catholics did not have the same constrictions. We are not constrained to be ‘green’ or hippies.

Again, not at all related to what I asked. You indeed seem to be so deeply frustrated, that you are responding to things that were never asked of you. I didn’t ask you if you wanted to continue eating meat and wearing fur, nor did I say you shouldn’t, or that the Church didn’t allow you to. I asked you to offer your beliefs with regard to the balance to be achieved when weighing your will (your desires to eat meat and wear fur) with what you believe God’s will is regarding those things …and if you knew if the Church Herself provided guidance for us on this matter.

am in total opposition to anyone who suggests that animals have ‘rights.’ Human life was made in God’s image. Not the life of a lab rat.

Fair enough. How do you define “rights”? Or better yet, what are our obligations as we exercise our rights in the treatment of animals to extract from them our food and clothing?

 

[Marfran]

Fair enough. How do you define “rights”?

I think that this question is integral to all discussion on “animal rights,” as there seems to be divergent thought on the meaning of this phrase (and sometimes misunderstanding and erroneous assumption).

 

[Marfran]

I am in total opposition to anyone who suggests that animals have ‘rights.’ Human life was made in God’s image.

How does being cruel to animals reflect God’s image???

 

[Marfran]

**HSUS Fur-Free Campaign **Coats for Cubs: Donate Your Old Furs to Wildlife tiny.cc/cmdE8

 

[StillWondering]

I am coming to this conversation late and do not have the article I am refering to link. I would still like to mention that if one shows a picture of a unhatched chick inside it’s egg, our society will recognize the chicken. Same goes for tadpoles in their eggs. Same goes for unborn elephants in their mothers belly. This is undisputed as far as society as a whole is concern.

Yet, a fetus is called a fetus and disputed as to whether it is a human being. Some say it is fully human, us and others who know that this person will grow up. Even Jesus was in a womb at one point. And so were each of us and our parents! Others will content it is not a human being because humans need full human reasoning. First, how many people out there actually use their full brain frequently. And even more scary, that would imply that my family can euthanize my sister who has mental difficulties? No the law does not allow – strange is it not? Now some will say it is a human being but that the mother has the full choice to destroy it or not.

A unborn and borned baby is alive and needs protection against those who will harm it.

 

[Marfran]

I am coming to this conversation late and do not have the article I am refering to link. I would still like to mention that if one shows a picture of a unhatched chick inside it’s egg, our society will recognize the chicken. Same goes for tadpoles in their eggs. Same goes for unborn elephants in their mothers belly. This is undisputed as far as society as a whole is concern.

Yet, a fetus is called a fetus and disputed as to whether it is a human being. Some say it is fully human, us and others who know that this person will grow up. Even Jesus was in a womb at one point. And so were each of us and our parents! Others will content it is not a human being because humans need full human reasoning. First, how many people out there actually use their full brain frequently. And even more scary, that would imply that my family can euthanize my sister who has mental difficulties? No the law does not allow – strange is it not? Now some will say it is a human being but that the mother has the full choice to destroy it or not.

**A unborn and borned baby is alive and needs protection against those who will harm it. **

Absolutely yes.

 

[sdtouchton]

How long will the land lie parched and the grass in every field be withered?
Because those who live in it are wicked, the animals and birds have perished." Jeremiah 12:4
God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

“Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw.” Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

“All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields.” Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

“Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them” Matthew 6:26

“He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call.” Psalm 147:9

The Bible describes the Angels around God’s throne as having features and characteristics like those of a lion, a bull and an eagle (Ezekiel 1). God Himself is likened in Scripture to a lion, a leopard, a bear (Hosea 13:7, 8), and to an eagle (Deut. 32:11).

Jesus is described as “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” John 1:29
Jesus identified Himself with all the innocent animals who had been sacrificed for the sins of mankind and declared that His was the final sacrifice. Jesus abolished animal sacrifices and so Christianity has always rejected the need for further bloodshed of animals (Hebrews 9:12, 26).

“For the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins. For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, He said to God: You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but You have prepared a body for Me. You are not pleased with animals burnt whole on the altar or with sacrifices to take away sins. Then I said, ‘Here I am to do Your will, O God.’” Hebrews 10:4-7

The Scriptures reveal God’s anger against man’s sinfulness. God condemned the type of wholesale slaughter of animals in Judaism as a cover-up for their disobedience
(Psalm 40:6-10).

This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head." Ephesians 1:10

“Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water.” Isaiah 11:6-9

“Search in the Lord’s book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever.” Isaiah 34:16, 17

When the revealed Word of God teaches us that God’s eternal plan is for “all creation” to be brought together under Christ then it includes all wildlife too. When God says “everything”, He means everything - animals included.

When He says that they will live for “age after age”, “forever”, this means eternal life. Only one place will last forever, and that is Heaven.

Praise Him, hills and mountains, fruit trees and forests; all animals, tame and wild, reptiles and birds." Psalm 148:9, 10

“Be glad, earth and sky! Roar sea and every creature in you: be glad fields and everything in you! The trees in the woods will shout for joy.” Psalm 96:11, 12
All animals belong to God. What gives us the right to torture them to satisfy our curiosity in the name of “science”?

We are answerable to God for our treatment of animals. What are we going to say about trapping animals for furs, forcing them to do unnatural acts in circuses, confining and abusing them for our amusement? How can smokers justify the torture and killing of thousands of dogs and monkeys in “tobacco research”?

“A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs.” Proverbs 12:10

The Bible says that God has fixed a day in which He will judge the whole world with justice (Acts 17:31). It is well to remember that although man was created in the image of God, the whole message of the Bible is that all mankind has fallen into sinful rebellion against God.

“They are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go. They have not known the path of peace, nor have they learnt to fear God . . . Everyone has sinned and is far away from God’s saving presence.” Romans 3:15-17, 23

 

[Marfran]

How long will the land lie parched and the grass in every field be withered?
Because those who live in it are wicked, the animals and birds have perished." Jeremiah 12:4
God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

“Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw.” Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

“All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields.” Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

“Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them” Matthew 6:26

“He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call.” Psalm 147:9

The Bible describes the Angels around God’s throne as having features and characteristics like those of a lion, a bull and an eagle (Ezekiel 1). God Himself is likened in Scripture to a lion, a leopard, a bear (Hosea 13:7, 8), and to an eagle (Deut. 32:11).

Jesus is described as “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” John 1:29
Jesus identified Himself with all the innocent animals who had been sacrificed for the sins of mankind and declared that His was the final sacrifice. Jesus abolished animal sacrifices and so Christianity has always rejected the need for further bloodshed of animals (Hebrews 9:12, 26).

“For the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins. For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, He said to God: You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but You have prepared a body for Me. You are not pleased with animals burnt whole on the altar or with sacrifices to take away sins. Then I said, ‘Here I am to do Your will, O God.’” Hebrews 10:4-7

The Scriptures reveal God’s anger against man’s sinfulness. God condemned the type of wholesale slaughter of animals in Judaism as a cover-up for their disobedience
(Psalm 40:6-10).

This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head." Ephesians 1:10

“Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water.” Isaiah 11:6-9

“Search in the Lord’s book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever.” Isaiah 34:16, 17

When the revealed Word of God teaches us that God’s eternal plan is for “all creation” to be brought together under Christ then it includes all wildlife too. When God says “everything”, He means everything - animals included.

When He says that they will live for “age after age”, “forever”, this means eternal life. Only one place will last forever, and that is Heaven.

Praise Him, hills and mountains, fruit trees and forests; all animals, tame and wild, reptiles and birds." Psalm 148:9, 10

“Be glad, earth and sky! Roar sea and every creature in you: be glad fields and everything in you! The trees in the woods will shout for joy.” Psalm 96:11, 12
All animals belong to God. What gives us the right to torture them to satisfy our curiosity in the name of “science”?

We are answerable to God for our treatment of animals. What are we going to say about trapping animals for furs, forcing them to do unnatural acts in circuses, confining and abusing them for our amusement? How can smokers justify the torture and killing of thousands of dogs and monkeys in “tobacco research”?

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

The Bible says that God has fixed a day in which He will judge the whole world with justice (Acts 17:31). It is well to remember that although man was created in the image of God, the whole message of the Bible is that all mankind has fallen into sinful rebellion against God.

“They are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go. They have not known the path of peace, nor have they learnt to fear God . . . Everyone has sinned and is far away from God’s saving presence.” Romans 3:15-17, 23

**Fabulous post!!! Thanks for all the Biblical references!!! **

 

[SteveGC]

**Fabulous post!!! Thanks for all the Biblical references!!! **

I must agree. Very enlightening, indeed. A cause for us all to stop and contemplate our authentic needs vs our rights.

 

[severus68]

How long will the land lie parched and the grass in every field be withered?
Because those who live in it are wicked, the animals and birds have perished." Jeremiah 12:4
God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

“Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw.” Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

“All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields.” Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

“Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them” Matthew 6:26

“He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call.” Psalm 147:9

The Bible describes the Angels around God’s throne as having features and characteristics like those of a lion, a bull and an eagle (Ezekiel 1). God Himself is likened in Scripture to a lion, a leopard, a bear (Hosea 13:7, 8), and to an eagle (Deut. 32:11).

Jesus is described as “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” John 1:29
Jesus identified Himself with all the innocent animals who had been sacrificed for the sins of mankind and declared that His was the final sacrifice. Jesus abolished animal sacrifices and so Christianity has always rejected the need for further bloodshed of animals (Hebrews 9:12, 26).

“For the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins. For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, He said to God: You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but You have prepared a body for Me. You are not pleased with animals burnt whole on the altar or with sacrifices to take away sins. Then I said, ‘Here I am to do Your will, O God.’” Hebrews 10:4-7

The Scriptures reveal God’s anger against man’s sinfulness. God condemned the type of wholesale slaughter of animals in Judaism as a cover-up for their disobedience
(Psalm 40:6-10).

This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head." Ephesians 1:10

“Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water.” Isaiah 11:6-9

“Search in the Lord’s book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever.” Isaiah 34:16, 17

When the revealed Word of God teaches us that God’s eternal plan is for “all creation” to be brought together under Christ then it includes all wildlife too. When God says “everything”, He means everything - animals included.

When He says that they will live for “age after age”, “forever”, this means eternal life. Only one place will last forever, and that is Heaven.

Praise Him, hills and mountains, fruit trees and forests; all animals, tame and wild, reptiles and birds." Psalm 148:9, 10

“Be glad, earth and sky! Roar sea and every creature in you: be glad fields and everything in you! The trees in the woods will shout for joy.” Psalm 96:11, 12
All animals belong to God. What gives us the right to torture them to satisfy our curiosity in the name of “science”?

We are answerable to God for our treatment of animals. What are we going to say about trapping animals for furs, forcing them to do unnatural acts in circuses, confining and abusing them for our amusement? How can smokers justify the torture and killing of thousands of dogs and monkeys in “tobacco research”?

“A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs.” Proverbs 12:10

The Bible says that God has fixed a day in which He will judge the whole world with justice (Acts 17:31). It is well to remember that although man was created in the image of God, the whole message of the Bible is that all mankind has fallen into sinful rebellion against God.

“They are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go. They have not known the path of peace, nor have they learnt to fear God . . . Everyone has sinned and is far away from God’s saving presence.” Romans 3:15-17, 23

Just read your post and must commend you on a job well done in showing clearly how animals are dear to God too.

 

[Christopher68]

I am coming to this conversation late and do not have the article I am refering to link. I would still like to mention that if one shows a picture of a unhatched chick inside it’s egg, our society will recognize the chicken. Same goes for tadpoles in their eggs. Same goes for unborn elephants in their mothers belly. This is undisputed as far as society as a whole is concern.

Yet, a fetus is called a fetus and disputed as to whether it is a human being. Some say it is fully human, us and others who know that this person will grow up. Even Jesus was in a womb at one point. And so were each of us and our parents! Others will content it is not a human being because humans need full human reasoning. First, how many people out there actually use their full brain frequently. And even more scary, that would imply that my family can euthanize my sister who has mental difficulties? No the law does not allow – strange is it not? Now some will say it is a human being but that the mother has the full choice to destroy it or not.

A unborn and borned baby is alive and needs protection against those who will harm it.

I’m not really sure what could be done to change the societal view that a fetus and a human are different.

For insance, there is a difference in how society views a miscarriage versus a stillborn. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wth a miscarriage there is no death certificate issued, there is no funeral, etc. - as there is with a stillborn. While either situation is tragic for those involved, society treats each situation differently.

Also, let’s say that a pregnant woman is pulled over for driving in a carpool lane. From a legal standpoint, I don’t think the officer is going to view this as two people in the car.

 

[StillWondering]

I’m not really sure what could be done to change the societal view that a fetus and a human are different.

For insance, there is a difference in how society views a miscarriage versus a stillborn. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wth a miscarriage there is no death certificate issued, there is no funeral, etc. - as there is with a stillborn. While either situation is tragic for those involved, society treats each situation differently.

Also, let’s say that a pregnant woman is pulled over for driving in a carpool lane. From a legal standpoint, I don’t think the officer is going to view this as two people in the car.

You make some good points. During the homily from this previous Sunday Vigil Mass on 09/19/09 (I forgot the correct term for the Saturday Mass for the Sunday Obligation), the priest talked about the Gospel passage about how Christ told the Apostles that they need to receive a child such as this in His name. Well, the priest explained how in Jewish culture from that time, children are considered objects not fully human until their Bar/Bat Mitzvah. At this point they are fully recognized by the community, families lived “tribally” in extended family communities.

It seems like no matter how Christ teaches us about the precious gift of human life in all its forms, there will still be humans who are resistant to the concept that humanity is greater then just the ability to think and write. Humans are the only visible creature that can both know and love its creator. This is whether you are a fetus, or a child, or an adult. Each has a rational and immortal soul.

I do not really have an answer, but at least children are considered fully human by some people. The rest needs convincing over time, maybe even a long long time.

 

[Eucharisted]

I am suddenly reminded of this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4660470&postcount=1

 

[Marfran]

I am suddenly reminded of this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4660470&postcount=1

I don’t exactly get what the*** good laugh ***is about. Children, babies, human fetuses, metally disabled people, animals…can all be taken advantage of and brutalized etc. In that they do have something in common.

You’ll have to spell out your laugh–I do not get your humor.

 

[severus68]

I am suddenly reminded of this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4660470&postcount=1

May I ask what the relevence is to this thread? Aren’t we all as Christians supposed to care for the weak, and the helpless whoever and whatever they are?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

How does being cruel to animals reflect God’s image???

Here is the issue.

Babies are humans both born and unborn. Abortion is a human rights issue. Nothing else… just like slavery. The only problem is that a little less than half of this country still believe as those who sought to defended slavery being saying, “well they are not really human” as if the relativism is that statement really matters.

The animal rights issue is not a human right issue. Anyone’s form of relativism beyond that statement on animal rights really doesn’t matter.

The answer quote above does not address the issue being raised. It’s a bait and switch…

 

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by Marfran
How does being cruel to animals reflect God’s image???

Here is the issue.

Babies are humans both born and unborn. Abortion is a human rights issue. Nothing else… just like slavery. The only problem is that a little less than half of this country still believe as those who sought to defended slavery being saying, “well they are not really human” as if the relativism is that statement really matters.

The animal rights issue is not a human right issue. Anyone’s form of relativism beyond that statement on animal rights really doesn’t matter.

The answer quote above does not address the issue being raised. It’s a bait and switch…

I completely do not follow you. You posted a quote of mine and I do not follow the logic of your response. People on this thread have made statements about being made in the image of God and my question is how does being made in the image of God promote animal abuse??? I can not understand how being made in the image of God entitles us to abuse animals. Being made in the “image of God” means that we are called to and should be capable of ***caring for ***God’s creation (in a way in which animals are not), we are capable of being compassionate and merciful–qualities of our Lord

 

[Clevelander]

Okay, I propose a reset here. We mostly agree with each other, differing about where the emphasis belongs. Is there anyone here who would disagree that the opinion summarized below, allegedly held by the Australian utilitarian Peter Singer, is the very voice of evil (well-meaning, of course, but aren’t they always). (For the full context, the article from which this was taken is called “While Europe Slept” by Jean Bethke Elshtain in the March 2009 issue of “First Things” magazine, which can be viewed here: catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0242.htm.) Here is the summary of Singer:

“In an interview for a British magazine during the summer of 2005, Singer said that if he faced the quandary of saving from a raging fire either a mentally disabled child, an orphan child nobody wanted, or normal animals, he would save the animals. If the child had a mother who would be devastated by the child’s death, he would save the child, but unwanted orphans have no such value.”

 

[Marfran]

Okay, I propose a reset here. We mostly agree with each other, differing about where the emphasis belongs. Is there anyone here who would disagree that the opinion summarized below, allegedly held by the Australian utilitarian Peter Singer, is the very voice of evil (well-meaning, of course, but aren’t they always). (For the full context, the article from which this was taken is called “While Europe Slept” by Jean Bethke Elshtain in the March 2009 issue of “First Things” magazine, which can be viewed here: catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0242.htm.) Here is the summary of Singer:

“In an interview for a British magazine during the summer of 2005, Singer said that if he faced the quandary of saving from a raging fire either a mentally disabled child, an orphan child nobody wanted, or normal animals, he would save the animals. If the child had a mother who would be devastated by the child’s death, he would save the child, but unwanted orphans have no such value.”

Peter Singer has some big warps in his thinking. This whole thread started because the original poster was frustrated with the commercials on TV by the ASPCA for the protection of animals, and the absence of commercials against abortion. We pointed out to her that there have been pro-life, anti-abortion commercials for years in the USA (just saw one yesterday on my TV) and that taking her frustrations out on another *just cause *does not advance the pro-life fight against human abortion. We can fight to end abortion and we can also fight for other just causes simultenously.

And yes, Peter Singer’s ideas are flawed (in a big way). We Catholics who do not like cruelty to animals, do not like Peter Singer, and we belong to organizations like Catholic Concern for Animals and do not buy Mr. Singer’s books.

 

[severus68]

Peter Singer has some big warps in his thinking. This whole thread started because the original poster was frustrated with the commercials on TV by the ASPCA for the protection of animals, and the absence of commercials against abortion. We pointed out to her that there have been pro-life, anti-abortion commercials for years in the USA (just saw one yesterday on my TV) and that taking her frustrations out on another *just cause *does not advance the pro-life fight against human abortion. We can fight to end abortion and we can also fight for other just causes simultenously.

And yes, Peter Singer’s ideas are flawed (in a big way). We Catholics who do not like cruelty to animals, do not like Peter Singer, and we belong to organizations like Catholic Concern for Animals and do not buy Mr. Singer’s books.

Charles Dickens in his book “Hard Times” spoke against utiltarianism. Don’t know this Peter Singer, don’t think I would care for him.