Babtism

[Jean_1958]

Hi Truthseeker,

It makes sence but I do not want to commit myself to baptizing my child Catholic if that is not were I plan to be. I can’t profess a faith for my child in good conciense when I can’t or won’t profess the faith myself can I?

What about your significant other? Does she practice her Catholic faith and want to bring up the child as a Catholic?

Jean

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe you could clarify what you mean by saying that “if you are Catholic, you must baptize in the Catholic Church.” I thought there would be no difference at all. If a baptism performed in a Protestant church on a Protestant infant is valid, would the same baptism on a Catholic infant be invalid?

It would be valid, but in order for the child to receive any other Sacraments in the Catholic Church, he would have to make a Profession of Faith and convert to the Catholic Faith. He is not considered “Catholic” if he is baptized in a different tradition. The assumption is that if parents have their child baptized in a different tradition, that they would like to raise their child in that other tradition.

We had a case like that here last year, where I had a little boy in my First Holy Communion class who produced an Anglican certificate of baptism for his registration. We interviewed the boy and his parents, to make sure that the boy wanted to be Catholic, and that the parents wanted to raise him in the Catholic faith. Father then arranged for the boy to make his Profession of Faith during the First Holy Communion retreat, and he was issued a certificate, which he is to attach to his Baptismal certificate, showing that he had done this.

The parents had been under the impression that, because some Protestant baptisms are accepted by the Catholic Church, it would be okay for them to get their Anglican friend to baptize their son. They didn’t consult with a priest; they just went ahead and did that, without realizing the trouble they were causing for their son.

 

[PJM]

=Thruthseeker;6396444]Why is it Important to baptize a child in the Catholic Church?

From the Catholic catecheism:

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

1290 In the first centuries Confirmation generally comprised one single celebration with Baptism, forming with it a “double sacrament,” according to the expression of St. Cyprian. Among other reasons, the multiplication of infant baptisms all through the year, the increase of rural parishes, and the growth of dioceses often prevented the bishop from being present at all baptismal celebrations. In the West the desire to reserve the completion of Baptism to the bishop caused the temporal separation of the two sacraments. The East has kept them united, so that Confirmation is conferred by the priest who baptizes. But he can do so only with the “myron” consecrated by a bishop.

 

[sixofseven]

It makes sence but I do not want to commit myself to baptizing my child Catholic if that is not were I plan to be. I can’t profess a faith for my child in good conciense when I can’t or won’t profess the faith myself can I?

Well, where do you plan to be? Where does your partner plan to be? Have you been Baptised? What do you want for your child?

All that the Church requires is that the parents undertake to do their best to bring the child up as Catholic. Provided that there is a well-founded hope that the child will be brought up as Catholic, the child may be baptised. It does not necessarily hinge on your personal faith - you are asking for your child to be baptised and are indicating that you intend to raise them Catholic.

As for your role in the ceremony, I found this through a google search:

**What role do I, a non-Catholic parent, have in the baptismal ceremony? **
Several questions are asked of you during the ceremony:

What name have you given your child?

What so you ask of God’s church for N.? You answer, ‘Baptism’.

The priest then says: 'You have asked to have your child baptised. In doing so you are accepting responsibility for bringing him/her up in the practice of the faith. It will be your duty to bring him/her up to follow Christ’s teaching, by loving God and our neighbour. Do you clearly understand what you are undertaking?

You are invited to profess your faith. Sometimes, you do this with the whole community.

Following this, and immediately prior to the baptism of your child the priest asks you:

Is it your will that your child should be baptised in the faith of the Church, which we have all professed with you?

You are invited to participate in the ceremony in other ways. For example, either one of you holds the child. You are invited to trace the sign of the cross on the child’s forehead. Either you or godparent puts a white garment on your child as a sign of being clothed with Christ and as a sign of Christian dignity. Either you or godparent lights your child’s baptismal candle from the Paschal Candle.

At the end of the ceremony the celebrant blesses individually the mother and the father of the child.

As a non-Catholic parent you may choose the extent to which you are involved. Some of the questions you might choose to respond to, others you might choose to remain silent and have your spouse answer. You can discuss this with the celebrant during the preparation for the baptism.

I hope this helps.

 

[PJM]

=Thruthseeker;6398011]No, Your apology excepted… I am Doing research. because I am not Catholic yet my significant other and I have a daughter together. She wants to Babtize and I want to know how much of a commitment that gives her (the baby) to the Catholic church. I am open minded and would like to expose her to “all types” of christianity. As I am a believer but do not want to instill a certain believe in my child. I can lead them to RiverS but I can’t make them drink.

Catholic Baptism both implies and imposes an obligation to raise the child as a Catholic.

One can only be a Catholic in full and humble obedience to all that the Church teaches and holds as truth.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[adstrinity]

Hi Truthseeker.

I like the way one of the popes of the Middle Ages explained it. Pope Innocent III contended that to appreciate the reason for infant baptism, we have to reflect upon our fallen nature. Catholics, as most Christians, hold that each of the offspring of Adam contracts what is commonly called “original sin”. The objection to infant baptism is that an infant is unable to consent to be baptized. Clearly. But if the affliction of original sin is contracted without consent, the affliction of original sin may be remitted without consent.

Here are his words:—Denz. 410, The Effect of Baptism (and the Character), Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)

There is also the biblical argument which draws the parallel to circumcision of the Old Testament whereby infant males were made part of the covenant. St. Paul in his letter to the Colossians ties circumcision with baptism: Col. 2:11-13

Very good!

It is important to view baptism as the new covenant circumcision. We know that the old testament contained a shadow of the good things to come. Baptism is the good thing to come in the new testament. If you look at the age when an infant entered into covenant with God, it was at 8 days. An infant. Baptism is no different. We want to see our kids united to the Body of Christ as soon as we can.

If we required a full understanding of what baptism does for us before we did it, none of us could ever really be baptized. We need to entrust our children to God and this is the way to do it.

I would like to add to these two explinations on how it is also because of the parents or guardians that the child receives the graces, Mark 2:

1

And again he entered into Capharnaum after some days. 2 And it was heard that he was in the house, and many came together, so that there was no room; no, not even at the door; and he spoke to them the word. 3 And they came to him, bringing one sick of the palsy, who was carried by four. 4 And when they could not offer him unto him for the multitude, they uncovered the roof where he was; and opening it, they let down the bed wherein the man sick of the palsy lay. 5 And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee. *

It was because of their (the people’s in the room’s & on the roof) faith that Jesus forgave the man his sins…and, later, to prove He’s God, cured the man.

Whether he is or not, (Hey Truthseeker, welcome. ) as you know, it’s good to answer for the lurkers who haven’t seen the reasoning before.

On a side note, anybody else keep reading the title to this and thinking it’s some weird Barbara Streisand cult?

 

[fbl9]

I read a thread here yesterday but can’t find it yet…I must share this(i think was the title)
The op of that thread told of a story she heard in her youth… the person presenting the story had a large pickle jar.(which represented persons)The jar was filled with sand and the presentor tried to put a statue of Christ in the jar it wouldn’t fit because the jar was filled with the things of life,which was what the sand represented. The presentor stated that when we fill our lives up there is no room for Christ.The presentor then dumped out the sand put the statue in first then filled it with sand and the sand fit perfectly around the statue.Then presentor then went to say that if one put’s Christ first in their life then life will fit perfectly around Him.
So if one put’s Christ as the first thing in their life they won’t have to dump out anything in order for Christ to fit in their life cause their life is already fitted around Him…
Take an infant whose pickle jar is still empty and put Christ in it first through the sacrement of baptism.Then teach that child and his/her life will be built around Christ…

 

[fbl9]

Found the thread;;I gotta share this…by shondrea. It can be found in the Catholic living section under sub-forum spirituality.

And don’t ask why didn’t you post a link instead, cause if i knew how i would have

 

[Jean_1958]

Fixing earlier post: (Sorry, am sick and not feeling well. My bad.)

It makes sence but I do not want to commit myself to baptizing my child Catholic if that is not were I plan to be. I can’t profess a faith for my child in good conciense when I can’t or won’t profess the faith myself can I?

Hi Truthseeker,

What about your significant other? Does she practice her Catholic faith and want to bring up the child as a Catholic?

Jean

 

[Jean_1958]

Expanding:

Truthseeker,

If your SO practices her faith and wants to Baptize the child as Ctaholic, then you should let her because it tells her that you truly love and respect her as your SO.

By Baptizing the child, no one is asking YOU to profess a faith for your child in good conciense.

Baptizing a child in the Catholic faith means that you’re welcoming them into the Church and in being a part of God’s family as a Christian. That said, I don’t see why it should bother you that much.

I think you need to find out just how “Catholic” your SO is. Sit down and have a talk with her. If she wants to actually raise the child as such, then you may have to give a bit for her to be happy in the relationship.

Didn’t you know just how “Catholic” she was prior to having a child with her? Why didn’t you discuss this kind of thing, raising children, prior to having them?

Also, bare in mind that children receive the sacraments growing up and it is not until high school age when they face Confirmation that FULL membership in the Church is actually bestowed upon the recipient. It is at the Confirmation stage that the child will either continue on as a Catholic or not.

My one brother married a Russian Orthodox. They Baptized my niece, sent her to a Catholic school until 8th grade, and put her through all of the sacraments except Confirmation. It was at my niece’s Confirmation stage that she decided she was going to be a Russian Orthodox and that is the path she continues to follow as an adult.

Hope this helps.

Jean

 

[Thruthseeker]

Expanding:

Truthseeker,

If your SO practices her faith and wants to Baptize the child as Ctaholic, then you should let her because it tells her that you truly love and respect her as your SO.

By Baptizing the child, no one is asking YOU to profess a faith for your child in good conciense.

Baptizing a child in the Catholic faith means that you’re welcoming them into the Church and in being a part of God’s family as a Christian. That said, I don’t see why it should bother you that much.

I think you need to find out just how “Catholic” your SO is. Sit down and have a talk with her. If she wants to actually raise the child as such, then you may have to give a bit for her to be happy in the relationship.

Didn’t you know just how “Catholic” she was prior to having a child with her? Why didn’t you discuss this kind of thing, raising children, prior to having them?

Also, bare in mind that children receive the sacraments growing up and it is not until high school age when they face Confirmation that FULL membership in the Church is actually bestowed upon the recipient. It is at the Confirmation stage that the child will either continue on as a Catholic or not.

My one brother married a Russian Orthodox. They Baptized my niece, sent her to a Catholic school until 8th grade, and put her through all of the sacraments except Confirmation. It was at my niece’s Confirmation stage that she decided she was going to be a Russian Orthodox and that is the path she continues to follow as an adult.

Hope this helps.

Jean

Jean,

       I ask myself the same question...... LOL.... Why did we not talk about all this before we had children.... What is done, is done and I can't send the kid back.....

However, the reason I have this inquiry is the fact that she (since I’ve known her) has NOT practiced her faith. Doesn’t go to church on sundays, doesn’t do anything else with the church…But now it’s all about having the child babptized yet can’t give me a good reason… The best answer I’ve gotten from the family as a whole is that “It’s Tradition.”
To me (and I am a believer, I just don’t practice any faith)to put my child into a faith has to mean more than just “It’s Tradition”

 

[sixofseven]

Jean,

       I ask myself the same question...... LOL.... Why did we not talk about all this before we had children.... What is done, is done and I can't send the kid back.....

However, the reason I have this inquiry is the fact that she (since I’ve known her) has NOT practiced her faith. Doesn’t go to church on sundays, doesn’t do anything else with the church…But now it’s all about having the child babptized yet can’t give me a good reason… The best answer I’ve gotten from the family as a whole is that “It’s Tradition.”
To me (and I am a believer, I just don’t practice any faith)to put my child into a faith has to mean more than just “It’s Tradition”

I tend to agree with you.
I also think, however, that for many ‘cultural Catholics’ although they do not practice the faith themselves, they have I suppose a conscience. The reason they give may be that ‘it’s tradition’ but I think deep deep down, it’s because they know it’s the right thing to do.

I get so cranky when people rock up to have their child baptised, some not even going to Mass but waiting outside till the Mass was over (now all baptisms are done as part of the Mass). Others rocking up that I knew weren’t practising and I think ‘they’re about to promise to raise their kids Catholic and I know they won’t’. Makes me sad and cranky at the same time.

If you know that your child isn’t going to be raised Catholic, then perhaps it’s time to sit down and talk with your SO… don’t promise God and His Church that you’ll do something and then not do it…

 

[jmcrae]

Also, bare in mind that children receive the sacraments growing up and it is not until high school age when they face Confirmation that FULL membership in the Church is actually bestowed upon the recipient. It is at the Confirmation stage that the child will either continue on as a Catholic or not.

That’s not quite accurate. Confirmation is the Holy Spirit “confirming” the child’s Baptism, and it is a source of grace for the child, to strengthen her in the gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Right Judgement, Courage, Piety and Fear of the Lord, but it is not like a “Catholic Altar Call” - the choice to become Catholic is made at the time of Baptism, and is not reversible.

After baptism in the Catholic Church, one is either a good Catholic or a bad Catholic. The choice to not be Confirmed is not a choice to not be Catholic - the child will always be Catholic, because of her Baptism.

 

[fbl9]

That’s not quite accurate. Confirmation is the Holy Spirit “confirming” the child’s Baptism, and it is a source of grace for the child, to strengthen her in the gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Right Judgement, Courage, Piety and Fear of the Lord, but it is not like a “Catholic Altar Call” - the choice to become Catholic is made at the time of Baptism, and is not reversible.

After baptism in the Catholic Church, one is either a good Catholic or a bad Catholic. The choice to not be Confirmed is not a choice to not be Catholic - the child will always be Catholic, because of her Baptism.

jm may i ask then: if being baptised makes one Catholic, are those validly baptised outside of the Church Catholics also?You do know that it is not the location of the baptism, even for infants, that makes a baptism valid.
Infant baptism is made by the parents faith, now if said parent do not transmit the faith , how can the decison to be in full communion with the Church be made without believing what they know, and knowing what they beleive.At this point it is up to the indiviadual to purse knowledge and the Church’s resposnsiblity ,yours and mine, (which we say so at every baptism we celebrate) to aid this individual.

 

[jmcrae]

jm may i ask then: if being baptised makes one Catholic, are those validly baptised outside of the Church Catholics also?

Not in terms of making them a visible member of the Catholic Church, and there would certainly be no expectation that they have to go to a Catholic Mass every Sunday henceforth, nor any expectation of the family following the precepts of the Catholic Church.

If the child makes a decision to become Catholic later on, she won’t be rebaptized - her baptism would “count” - but only retroactively, after she makes a Catholic Profession of Faith. Once she makes a Catholic Profession of Faith, she is then bound to the precepts of the Catholic Church - but not before that.

You do know that it is not the location of the baptism, even for infants, that makes a baptism valid.

The distinction between Catholic and non-Catholic baptism is not validity, or even licety, but rather, the professions of faith that are made at the same time as the Baptism. A non-Catholic makes no promises to the Catholic Church, nor does he promise to raise his children in the Catholic Church. Instead, he promises to raise his children in whatever tradition he is having them baptized in.

For example, if one has one’s child baptized in a Methodist church, the expectation would be that the family would attend a Methodist church and bring the child to Methodist Sunday School. So, even though it doesn’t affect the validity of the baptism, it does affect the expectations that the baptizing community has, with regard to the child’s upbringing and education.

I know of no organization that goes ahead and baptizes infants, without the expectation that the family would be raising their child in the tradition expressed in their Profession of Faith made during the baptism. In other words, there is no such thing as a “generic” baptism.

Infant baptism is made by the parents faith, now if said parent do not transmit the faith , how can the decision to be in full communion with the Church be made without believing what they know, and knowing what they believe.

Before a child can be baptized in the Catholic Church, the parents have to take a short course in which the basic precepts of the Church are outlined, and where it is made clear to them what the expectations of the Church are. Further, in the ceremony itself, the parents and godparents make promises to do everything possible to raise their child as a Catholic.

At this point it is up to the indiviadual to purse knowledge and the Church’s resposnsiblity ,yours and mine, (which we say so at every baptism we celebrate) to aid this individual.

Absolutely, yes. We as members of the congregation witnessing this child’s baptism need to proactively welcome the family into our community, and encourage them with all the support we can give, to help them raise their child in the teachings of our Church.