Baby Boomers and Social Security

  • Thread starter Thread starter Delphinus85
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Delphinus85

Guest
I suppose this would be as good of place as any to post this…

The other day my dad and I were talking about The Baby Boomer crisis with the social security program in the United States. While our conversation didn’t take me here, this has been a thought that is on my mind since I am old enough to know that I am young enough that the heavy financial burden of such a huge generation coming into retirement is going to fall on my shoulders. (My dad is a baby boomer, I just turned 22)

It didn’t hit me until today that I have always wondered how on earth such a large generation couldn’t even continue their numbers enough to have children to support them and the social security they would have. Then I realized that as these Baby Boomers were reaching their “child rearing” years, the 60’s and 70’s were hitting which we know marked the onslaught of abortion. Does anyone think that maybe the defecit in numbers between the Baby Boomers and their offspring needed to support them was kind of brought on my themselves by destroying their children?

Sorry if this offends anyone, feel free to put me right! (But gently, please 😉 )
 
I suppose this would be as good of place as any to post this…

(My dad is a baby boomer, I just turned 22)

Does anyone think that maybe the defecit in numbers between the Baby Boomers and their offspring needed to support them was kind of brought on my themselves by destroying their children?
It’s very difficult for me to believe that abortion has NOT contributed to the oncoming crisis, to some degree. I’m not sure what the numbers are by now, but my impression is that there have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 million abortions in the U.S. since it was Legalized by the S.C.

Now, if abortion on demand was not legal, likely there would not have been nearly so many abortions, as many simply use abortion as “back up birth control”. This is particularly true of the educated classes. Since most couples now have only slightly more than two children, (no one knows how many abortions) there is obviously an attempt to simply limit the numbers of children one has and, if not for abortion, it’s doubtful to me that the birth rate would be a lot higher, because couples would limit births in other ways if they were determined to have only one child or two. But even one more child per couple would make a lot of difference in the work force.

The Social Security mess is only going to get worse, and it’s deemed politically impossible to do anything about it. If (as Bush and Reagan both tried to do) someone makes an attempt to fix it, the other party capitalizes on it politically and kills it. What some do not realize, though, is that there has already been a fairly significant change. The SS benefit moves with the contribution level-not absolutely, but as a function of the maximum income upon which the tax is levied. Back when the amount taxed was low, those who were paying the full amount received the maximum benefit. Now that the maximum income taxed for SS is around $90,000, those who make less than that will not receive the maximum benefit. So, (and baby boomers will find this out to their surprise and sorrow) lots of people who thought they would receive the max because their parents or grandparents did, won’t. The politicians pulled a fast one and never talk about it. They are now talking about raising the amount of income on which the tax is levied, in the interests of “fairness”. It might be fair and it might not be fair to do that, but it will also have the effect of reducing what people get who don’t pay the maximum.

When you get right down to it, though, it seems to me a self-indulgent consumerism is behind the whole thing. People used to save for their retirement; much more than now. People invested in assets more. The prevalence of 401K plans is going to help over the very long term, but most people really don’t own any earning assets at all.

As you are a young fellow, I strongly recommend that you read a book entitled “The Millionaire Next Door”. I can’t remember who wrote it, but it’s interesting, and I’m sure you can find it. The fundamental points in the book are:
-People who become millionaires don’t necessarily make more than others, they spend less. There is no correllation at all between a high income and a high asset level. You cannot tell them from anyone else by looking at them, their houses, cars, clothes or any of the other things we normally associate with wealth. Most people who “look” wealthy are actually high earners who spend everything.
-Most millionaires in the U.S. did not inherit it.
-Most millionaires revinvest their money in their own businesses, which represents most of their wealth.
-Self-made millionaires typically marry for life and do not get divorced.
-Self-made millionaires typically have larger families than others.
-Self-made millionaires are usually serious church-goers.
-The spouses (usually the woman) of self-made millionaires are homemakers much more than the wives of others. However, the spouse is usually involved in the business and/or acquisition of other assets in some way, if only by keeping close watch and contributing by way of advice and careful use of resources.

Now, one can wonder if those people have acquired wealth because of the way they are, or whether they are the way they are in order to acquire wealth. The book leans to the former view. In support of it, they found that self-made millionaires do not really pay much attention to their wealth level. They have objectives, usually business or investment objectives, that produce wealth, but the business or investment objectives are what they are really trying to achieve, and wealth simply flows from the achievement of the objectives.
 
I suppose this would be as good of place as any to post this…

The other day my dad and I were talking about The Baby Boomer crisis with the social security program in the United States. While our conversation didn’t take me here, this has been a thought that is on my mind since I am old enough to know that I am young enough that the heavy financial burden of such a huge generation coming into retirement is going to fall on my shoulders. (My dad is a baby boomer, I just turned 22)

It didn’t hit me until today that I have always wondered how on earth such a large generation couldn’t even continue their numbers enough to have children to support them and the social security they would have. Then I realized that as these Baby Boomers were reaching their “child rearing” years, the 60’s and 70’s were hitting which we know marked the onslaught of abortion. Does anyone think that maybe the defecit in numbers between the Baby Boomers and their offspring needed to support them was kind of brought on my themselves by destroying their children?

Sorry if this offends anyone, feel free to put me right! (But gently, please 😉 )
Contraception.
 
Ran out of room, sorry.

This all seems to point to issues of character. A person can probably make it just fine without relying on the government if he or she has the personal characteristics that tend to allow a person to be self-reliant. That’s probably true even if the Democrats raise taxes in the next couple of years, which they have promised they will do.

So, while I agree that someone of your age is facing a tough sled due to the numbers of people you are going to have to support in retirement, I will also say that the lessons one might gain from looking at the baby boom generation are many, and are lessons about character in ways other than just having abortions.

Primary among them, it seems to me, is to fight shy of consumerism in all its ways. Abortion, when you get right down to it, is a symptom of consumerism. A young fellow like you needs to start really studying how you are going to avoid that.
 
It could be argued that rationing is on the way for the baby boomers. Line up and get your bread if you want to eat. Make that loaf last a week, it’s all you get. You lived high while young, you pay the price and die poor, having failed to invest well in what really matters in life.
 
It could be argued that rationing is on the way for the baby boomers. Line up and get your bread if you want to eat. Make that loaf last a week, it’s all you get. You lived high while young, you pay the price and die poor, having failed to invest well in what really matters in life.
The thing that scares me most as a young person though, is that most of these people (my dad for one) have NO retirement or savings to fall back on. And the government has a pattern of screwing those who take care of things, and have savings and take care of their finances to give to people who lived irresponsibly. I fear that no matter how much my husband and I save and invest, they are gunna squeeze us half to death to pay for my dad who never saved a dime, even though he makes twice what we do.
 
Social Security has always been a Ponsi scheme. It depended on a large working force to support a small retired population.

Longer life spans and population control have destroyed that assumption.
 
The thing that scares me most as a young person though, is that most of these people (my dad for one) have NO retirement or savings to fall back on. And the government has a pattern of screwing those who take care of things, and have savings and take care of their finances to give to people who lived irresponsibly. I fear that no matter how much my husband and I save and invest, they are gunna squeeze us half to death to pay for my dad who never saved a dime, even though he makes twice what we do.
There is so much socialist silliness among Church leaders that the encyclical messages concerning wealth and assets has gotten completely lost. And that’s a shame. What the Popes have said consistently is that, yes, the very poorest must have help; from government if from nowhere else. For the great majority, access to productive assets is the highest good. Dependence on corporate or government largesse reduces human independence and responsibility. Ownership of assets increases human independence and responsibility. Unfortunately, when the government, at one level or another, takes half your earnings, it’s tough to acquire anything.

For most, the only possible way is to deliberately live below one’s means, so that a surplus is created, however small. So many things are thought of as “necessities” that aren’t, but it’s usually the little things, added up, that keep a person broke, not the “big ticket” items.

I, for one, (and I claim no expertise) try to invest in things that keep the government’s hands off the money invested, but that are productive. I have always also been a borrower-but not to consume. To me, developing assets is kind of like the relationship between matter and anti-matter. You just about have to borrow to gain assets. From there the trick is in keeping the matter (the asset) and the anti-matter (the debt) from slamming together in mutual annihilation. Since asset growth is largely determined by nothing more than the passage of time, the trick is to keep them apart (and it isn’t always easy, and requires patience) until the matter simply outgrows the anti-matter. Yes, you pay interest in the meantime, but that interest also reduces your marginal tax rate and, depending on what you invest in, the asset helps pay that interest at least. I have borrowed to buy stock, real estate, equipment, livestock, and slowly, slowly just about killed off all the debt, while reducing my tax rate by buying things like real estate, equipment and livestock. I’m not going to pay tax on the increase because I’m not going to sell those things. I’m hoping to give them to my kids, (already have, some) so they have a basis to do the very same thing. But, like with the livestock and equipment, you have to lay the groundwork for some of those things. You have to do “A” before you can do “B”.

It’s hard for young people to see that. Once I was driving through a nearby resort area with my son. I pointed out to him this property and that and told him what they could have been bought for years ago and what they cost now. He said “well, Dad, why didn’t you buy up a bunch of it then?” To which I replied that it was just as hard to buy then as it is now. It was all just on a different scale. But I did manage a few things over the years. The thing is to get started when you’re young. It’s not easy, and it won’t seem like much for a long time. But that’s what you have to do in this economy anyway. You don’t have to do it on a big scale. Don’t get wild-eyed or greedy. Even just a small investment; say some stock you have investigated (that’s important). Let’s say you scrape together $500 and borrow another $500 and buy something; some regional bank maybe. They’re cheap and lots of them don’t have much or any subprime exposure. Likely you will be able to pay off a $500 loan. When you do, you will own $1000 worth of stock (hopefully more) and you can do it again, on a little bigger scale. Remember, it’s not important to take a big bite. Much better to take small ones you can actually handle, but to be consistent with it.

And remember, as an old professor of mine once told me “Remember, the IRS takes a lot, but they never take it all.”
Don’t worry too much about the government. It will do what it will do. You do what you need to do.
 
The thing that scares me most as a young person though, is that most of these people (my dad for one) have NO retirement or savings to fall back on. And the government has a pattern of screwing those who take care of things, and have savings and take care of their finances to give to people who lived irresponsibly. I fear that no matter how much my husband and I save and invest, they are gunna squeeze us half to death to pay for my dad who never saved a dime, even though he makes twice what we do.
Not everyone has had the good fortune to save toms of money. Many of us have lived through a couple of recessions, high inflation (Carter Years), paying cash for our kids education as there was no government help in loans like now, loss of jobs and the retirement funds we thought we had earned, the stock market corrections, medical expenses for our family members and the list goes on. We lost our retirement funds three times and are watching them shrink again with the stock market.

We live in the rust belt. Jobs went the way of the dinosaurs and no one helped keep these jobs here. This economy is based on purchasing stuff and not production. Blame the life styles that demanded more and more and not the individuals that have been caught in this mess.

Our home payments with the mortgage, insurance and taxes took 25% of our take home pay when we purchased it almost 29 years ago. Now it takes 25% of our income just to pay the taxes and insurance.

Many 22 year olds I know want to have everything we worked for 40 or more years to purchase and they want it now. I don’t have the answers but IMHO the majority of us have done the best we could with the money we earned. Don’t believe everything you see on TV (big retirement homes and golf courses or sheer poverty) as to what people will have or not have when they retire. The truth is someplace in between luxury and poverty.
 
Kathleen Elsie:

In no way do I want to offend, so please forgive me if I do. But if you’re paying 25% of your net income for taxes and insurance on your home, you’re in the wrong place. I realize there are places where both are very high, and I’m not doubting you. But not everywhere is like that.

You sound like maybe you’re at or near retirement age. I’m sure there are all kinds of reasons you wouldn’t want to move. But a lot of people move from the East and the West to here (So. Mo) to get away from the very thing you’re talking about. It’s not just here. There are lots of other places where retirees go to get a lower cost of living. If you work, or work part time to supplement retirement income, jobs are plentiful. The wages are probably less than where you are, with a few exceptions, but that’s all relative to what it costs to live.

Again, please don’t be offended, and I’m not trying to tout this area particularly. I’m sure there are lots of others. I’m just saying that kind of thing is an option, and a lot of people take it.
 
I’m just saying that kind of thing is an option, and a lot of people take it.
An option which people shouldn’t feel forced into by the frustrating circumstances in which they find themselves simply due to the locale in which they happen to reside.
 
as a boomer who is now in the age frame to consider SS up close and personal, I can attest that the boomers who make it in retirement are those (like us) who have taken steps toward their own financial security and have completly disregarded SS in the equation of the retirement assets. Those who rely on SS for the bulk of their support in retirement years will be living in virtual poverty. One thing that can’t be ignored is medicare, because unless you are wealthy enough to self-insure totally, you cannot buy private health insurance that does not force you to first apply for medicare benefits if you are over 65.

this debate or discussion has NOTHING whatever to do with retirees taking government subsidies or entitlements. we paid taxes sometimes at a rate higher than are federal, stare or local income taxes into this system throughout our entire working life (to support our grandparents and parents in their SS years), money we could have invested for our own security and that of our children, but is now going to be lost to us forever, so do not talk to me about entitlements. those of us who have been self employed paid even higher taxes into SS/medi
 
Kathleen Elsie:

In no way do I want to offend, so please forgive me if I do. But if you’re paying 25% of your net income for taxes and insurance on your home, you’re in the wrong place. I realize there are places where both are very high, and I’m not doubting you. But not everywhere is like that.

You sound like maybe you’re at or near retirement age. I’m sure there are all kinds of reasons you wouldn’t want to move. But a lot of people move from the East and the West to here (So. Mo) to get away from the very thing you’re talking about. It’s not just here. There are lots of other places where retirees go to get a lower cost of living. If you work, or work part time to supplement retirement income, jobs are plentiful. The wages are probably less than where you are, with a few exceptions, but that’s all relative to what it costs to live.

Again, please don’t be offended, and I’m not trying to tout this area particularly. I’m sure there are lots of others. I’m just saying that kind of thing is an option, and a lot of people take it.
But you assume that we make alot of money and could move. We still care for my mother and there are still seven of us at home. God has blessed us but it is the fact that there are many that have not been in the boom and are able to leave their lifelong homes and family.
 
I think that everyone needs to understand that each person has differing wants and needs. The 25% we pay for our home taxes and insurance is the equivalent of what my grandparents paid for theirs. What the people purchasing their homes now need to understand is that they will probably have to pay the same amount for their homes once they finish paying off the mortgage. Inflation and taxes need to be brought under control. 25% is actually low for many and is what even the government says is spent in basic housing.

Both my husband and I have paid into SS all of our working lives. And yes SS will be about 50% of our income after retirement. In all of our years of working we have been on government money two weeks when my husband was laid off. So I am not going to apologize to anyone for taking the SS we were promised and worked for. If that money had been used and saved for only its intended purpose then it would not be a problem for anyone.
 
An option which people shouldn’t feel forced into by the frustrating circumstances in which they find themselves simply due to the locale in which they happen to reside.
. . . like when our property taxes DOUBLED in one shot, without warning?
 
Both my husband and I have paid into SS all of our working lives. And yes SS will be about 50% of our income after retirement. In all of our years of working we have been on government money two weeks when my husband was laid off. So I am not going to apologize to anyone for taking the SS we were promised and worked for. If that money had been used and saved for only its intended purpose then it would not be a problem for anyone.
Agreed. It has been mishandled from the very first. The government simply spends the money for whatever it wants. That’s where Bush’s “partial privatization” would have been a good thing. If the money was actually paid into a fund that the taxpayer owned, it would be a lot better.

It would also do away with the “means testing” issue. SS was intended as a pension of last resort. Somehow, it doesn’t seem right for Bill Gates to receive the maximum SS benefit, where someone else who has nothing gets less. Again, if the money was being kept out separate, that would be one thing. It just seems wrong when it’s all just a taxpayer-supported pension anyway, largely unrelated to whether the amount paid in would be sufficient to pay the entitlement. It has always seemed to me SS should be “means tested”, precisely because most people take out much more than they ever pay in. If that was combined with private accounts, I could feel a lot better about the whole thing.
 
And no, KathleenElsie, I, for one, do not begrudge what you are getting. If you did not receive it, the shortfall burden would fall on your children, who are already paying SS taxes for other retirees. It’s the craziness of the way it works, not what people receive or need, that disturbs me. To me, there should be a guaranteed minimum income for retirees. If your private earnings are above it, you shouldn’t get SS. If your private earnings are below it, you should be supplement up to it. But all along, it would seem wise to me that there be a withholding to be put into a private account you could access only upon retirement, but which you actually owned. It really does upset me that someone, for example, whose investment income might be $200,000/year, gets SS benefits paid in by young people who can barely make ends meet and who might not receive SS benefits at all when they retire. That just isn’t right.

On the other hand, it’s mighty tempting for a fellow like me, who could take the early SS benefit but might still be able to work for years, and convert earned income to investment income by manipulating my business structure, to simply do it in order to get it and give it to my children to make up for the fact that they’re overtaxed. And that’s crazy too. If I could make $150,000 a year off investments, I can get the reduced benefit at 62. If, however, I make 24,000 by working, I can’t. It’s just insane the way it all works.
 
Sorry everyone, just to clarify, I don’t mean people who have been responsible and was unable to save, I am more frustrated about people like my dad who was perfectly able to save, but instead of doing that, buys computers, new cars, big screen tvs, boats, and old cars that he never fixes up, they just collect rust. He has no savings because he never saved, he just spent. I know quite a few people his age in that situation, and I feel frustrated that (hypothetically) he gets all the stuff he wants now while my husband and I bust our humps to save for retirement, then when he retires, in an effort to help people like him, the goverment raises our taxes through the roof so that I am in your sitation where all we saved counts for nothing and we can’t save anything at all because of the tax burden. I don’t think that the goverment will let these people live in poverty, but rather they will tax the breath out of the younger working folk.

And what is more frustrating is that the SSA is failing because of a population decrease that happened right about the same time as abortion.
 
Delphinus:

I know you meant no offense to anyone. It’s just one of those realities that are hard to take when you’re struggling. But it’s funny how those realities can turn around. And one of the things I always kept in mind is that, while there are all kinds of things that don’t seem fair or just plain aren’t fair, the only resource you and your husband have is yourselves and, when you get right down to it, there’s a certain satisfaction in that.
 
Sorry everyone, just to clarify, I don’t mean people who have been responsible and was unable to save, I am more frustrated about people like my dad who was perfectly able to save, but instead of doing that, buys computers, new cars, big screen tvs, boats, and old cars that he never fixes up, they just collect rust. He has no savings because he never saved, he just spent. I know quite a few people his age in that situation, and I feel frustrated that (hypothetically) he gets all the stuff he wants now while my husband and I bust our humps to save for retirement, then when he retires, in an effort to help people like him, the goverment raises our taxes through the roof so that I am in your sitation where all we saved counts for nothing and we can’t save anything at all because of the tax burden. I don’t think that the goverment will let these people live in poverty, but rather they will tax the breath out of the younger working folk.

And what is more frustrating is that the SSA is failing because of a population decrease that happened right about the same time as abortion.
Population growth was figured into the future benefits. Abortion and contraception put an end to that and the burden becomes over burdensome to the younger families.

I understand your frustrations. But, many of us OLD people have watched those younger then us purchase everything their parents have taken years to get. We don’t have a big screen tv but we do have the satelite dish (we don’t get cable or good reception here). We drive our cars till they die of old age yet most of the young people I know lease a new one every two years. It seems the economy is based on new every two years on most of the sutff we have.

LOL my grandfathers old Westinghouse refrdgerator was older then I was when Opa died and it still ran. His stove had good insulation and was over 40 years old when he died. Now everything is broken or replaced every two to ten years. Sad.

But with the way the economy is set up the majority of people have not had the blessings of alot extra for luxury or savings. Taking care of the family, giving to others in need and saving for that rainy day is the most many of us have been able to do. I pray that my children and grandchildren do better. But they could not have a better life then we have had for we have been blessed with them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top