S
sneakers
Guest
Agreed!I think:
Latin for those who want it.
English for those who want it.
Reverence for all.
~~ the phoenix
I believe that is exactly what the Pope is proposing.
sneakers
- Status
I believe that is exactly what the Pope is proposing.
sneakers
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Doubtful, Mary Bobo, you slip of a girl, you.
My own experience was different from that of many. I went to a Catholic grade school, similar to what others have described here. There was no Catholic high school, so I went to the public school for that. That was back when, if there was a “separation of church and state” you couldn’t tell it, because public high schools were practically protestant parochial schools. But it was, to me, a good experience, because it was self-defining for the few of us Catholics who were there. There was a Catholic high school in the Diocese, however, and my high school basketball team played theirs. Divided loyalties. But there was something about those teams and their fans; something upscale and “smart”. I admired them a great deal.
I was a debater in high school and, at overnight tournaments, much enjoyed hanging out with the Catholic high school debaters. It was interesting. They were very, very smart. Well dressed, breathtakingly moral to all appearances, but to me, just a trifle naive. To my huge surprise, the debate coach of one of those Jesuit schools suggested I apply for a debating scholarship to their college. My family could no more afford a school like that than they could afford a Rolls Royce, but I applied and got it and went there. The first time I ever saw the school was the day I showed up to attend.
It seemed like heaven to me. One thing that sticks in my mind was my great surprise to suddenly realize, after being there two months, that I had not been in a fight that whole time; something I had just taken as normal in the public high school. The student body was urban, when I was not; well-off by my standards anyway, believing, by and large, and amazingly well brought up. Everybody was Catholic. Almost nobody had ever set foot in a public school, and everybody was a Yankee but me.
This was all pre Vatican II. (So see, Mary Bobo, you’re not older than the rest of us.)
Still, and maybe one had to be an outsider to see it, but I could see regional differences. Everybody from one city seemed very orthodox and moral; most from another city seemed kind of depraved morally; I distinctly remember that students from yet another large city were just a turn “off” the orthodoxy that others seemed to have. All sorts of relativist notions; a sort of intellectual disdain of Church history and popular devotions. Again, this was all before Vatican II.
Vatican II happened while I was there, and it divided the student body instantly. Those who already seemed kind of cynical about the Church went “over the side” into a kind of extreme relativism and went big into “encounter” and “social justice” sorts of events. Those who were the most orthodox already, kind of consolidated. Even the faculty divided into camps. I recall that in my senior year we had to take a theology course that was based on Harvey Cox’ “The Secular City”. After three years of Aquinas, Maritain, Gilson and others, I couldn’t stand it. My debate partner and I resolved to prepare attacks on the course content for every class, which we did, and kept the frustrated professor busy. A part of the class hated us, but most applauded us.
I wasn’t the worst student and got a scholarship to a Catholic graduate school. If anything, it was even more divided there, with the majority there being “spirit of Vatican II” oriented. That way of thinking was almost indistinguishable from political liberalism with a dash of what I thought of as pop psychology. Interestingly, sexual license was also pervasive. It almost seemed to be part of the “loving, caring and sharing” culture. I couldn’t help thinking then, and I have often wondered about it since, that perhaps all was not that well within the Church, at least in some places, right before Vatican II. Those kids were nice, as I said, urbane, and nobody got into fistfights, and nobody ever uttered a racist remark. But something rebellious was going on in some places even before Vatican II, and it was as plain as day. That mass of people didn’t “go nuts” overnight. I have, as a consequence, thought VII didn’t really cause any of the rebellion in the Church. It was already there, and seized upon, and “stole” VII for its own purposes. As to its real causes, I had no clue then, and have none now.
(continued)
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
(continued)
Now I’m right back in my almost exclusively Fundamentalist neighborhood, and we have a very liberal, older bishop who is beyond retirement age. So his replacement is just a matter of time. Our neighboring dioceses have very orthodox bishops, two of whom have allowed the TLM for years and years, and the other two of whom have done so from and after the day of their fairly recent appointments. Some very big changes are going on in the latter two, particularly in religious formation. Younger priests, even here, are quite orthodox, whereas the older priests, by and large, are “felt-bannerers”. My children are, if anything, more orthodox than I am. There is little doubt in my mind that the “spirit of VII” era is within a decade of passing into history. And what a mess it has been.
But I sometimes wonder if somehow all of that represented a boil that had to be lanced. I don’t know, and don’t expect that I ever will. But I do think VII didn’t create all the craziness we’ve seen in the last four decades. It only bobbed it to the surface.
Now I’m right back in my almost exclusively Fundamentalist neighborhood, and we have a very liberal, older bishop who is beyond retirement age. So his replacement is just a matter of time. Our neighboring dioceses have very orthodox bishops, two of whom have allowed the TLM for years and years, and the other two of whom have done so from and after the day of their fairly recent appointments. Some very big changes are going on in the latter two, particularly in religious formation. Younger priests, even here, are quite orthodox, whereas the older priests, by and large, are “felt-bannerers”. My children are, if anything, more orthodox than I am. There is little doubt in my mind that the “spirit of VII” era is within a decade of passing into history. And what a mess it has been.
But I sometimes wonder if somehow all of that represented a boil that had to be lanced. I don’t know, and don’t expect that I ever will. But I do think VII didn’t create all the craziness we’ve seen in the last four decades. It only bobbed it to the surface.
B
brigid12
Guest
I think:
Latin for those who want it.
English for those who want it.
Reverence for all.
~~ the phoenix
And Anglican-Use Mass on the west coast, too!
K
krazykatlady
Guest
I am an old boomer, born 1947. Boomers were not responsible for the mess that followed VII. The oldest boomers were in high school when all of this happened. Then we went along with it out of the obedience we were taught or left the Church. Many chose to leave.
The push for the Church to approve artificial contraception started in the early to mid 60’s, once again, we were in high school. I was a non-Catholic attending Catholic school and planned to join the Church.The girls I associated with in Catholic high all intended to have large families and follow church teaching on contraception.
Then the rug was pulled out from under us. The ensuing culture was pretty overwhelming and most of us gave into it. The accepted wisdom became that it was actually sinful to have a large family what with overpopulation and all and that women were wasting their time and talent staying home and raising a family. The Church in America did not take a strong stand against the culture, if I recall.
I am so relieved to see things turning around in the Church. I love our Pope and the changes back to tradition that he is making. It has been one long bad dream.
I only wish that I knew then what I know now. I might have done things differently. But life is not a dress rehersal.
The push for the Church to approve artificial contraception started in the early to mid 60’s, once again, we were in high school. I was a non-Catholic attending Catholic school and planned to join the Church.The girls I associated with in Catholic high all intended to have large families and follow church teaching on contraception.
Then the rug was pulled out from under us. The ensuing culture was pretty overwhelming and most of us gave into it. The accepted wisdom became that it was actually sinful to have a large family what with overpopulation and all and that women were wasting their time and talent staying home and raising a family. The Church in America did not take a strong stand against the culture, if I recall.
I am so relieved to see things turning around in the Church. I love our Pope and the changes back to tradition that he is making. It has been one long bad dream.
I only wish that I knew then what I know now. I might have done things differently. But life is not a dress rehersal.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Agreed, though perhaps not only on the west coast. Those Anglicans really do have a way with the language.
And Anglican-Use Mass on the west coast, too!
Of course, I’m in a “hillbilly” area, and that might be too sophisticated for us. My favorite N.O. Mass locally is one in which the music is played on a hammered dulcimer and the numerous, numerous converts from Evangelical groups really can “Come to Jesus” in the Eucharist, and something about it seems awfully right.
T
the_phoenix
Guest
brotherhrolf and sneakers:
brigid12:
Well, if “Anglican-Use” is anything like Shakespearean, then I say, “Yea, verily!”
~~ the phoenix
brigid12:
Well, if “Anglican-Use” is anything like Shakespearean, then I say, “Yea, verily!”
~~ the phoenix
D
dessert
Guest
Thank you I will put this in my back pocket or write it on my sleeve and carry it to Church with me.I think:
Latin for those who want it.
English for those who want it.
Reverence for all.
~~ the phoenix
R
rwoehmke
Guest
After 18 years of study in Catholic Institutions and 4 years more in a State University graduating in 1964, I was really very happy with the early changes in the Church wrought by Vatican II. Fortunately for my family we lived in a smallish community in Western Wisconsin and saw only a smattering of some of the crazy stuff that followed. I have been told that our Diocese was the first one in the US to fully institute the vernacular Mass, but can’t vouch for that. I was among the first seven “lectors” in my parish and at that time we were all men and did it all; commentator, reader, song leader, EMHC . We did go through the “Kumbayah” phase and it felt good for most of us in the parish. Within a few years the teachers in our school phased over from Sisters of St. Agnes to lay people. I honestly believe the sisters did a much better job.
Also spent about 20 years teaching “CCD” to kids from the public school system and would assert that having “really dumb” texts forced upon us was a terrible mistake on the part of the diocese. Many of us in those years ignored the texts and tried to teach what we had learned in Catholic Schools before Vatican II. Despite that effort I truly believe at least a generation and maybe two were terribly short changed in the process. The second twenty years I have spent in teaching the Faith to adults, mostly converts.
I think the pendulum has been swinging back to something more rational with regard to liturgy and education of the young for at least 15 or 20 years now. “Kumbayah” is dead and buried and there are very few minor abuses if any in our Masses. We have Eucharistic Adoration 24/5 and working toward 24/7.
I will admit that change, when it came, came fast and hard with little effort to educate the laity about what was happening and why. There were fellow parishioners who were totally devastated by what happened. Some left the Church, some went to parishes nearby which were moving more slowly at implementing change. In the end change was inexorable and it didn’t do much good to switch. I still have a hand full of acquaintances who travel 30 or 40 miles for a Latin Mass whether EF or NO. I have recently tried the Latin liturgy and really do not like it beyond a few of the older Latin hymns which I can still sing. It was the only thing I knew until I was over 30 and I liked it then. Increased reverence in the NO would be very welcome. I sometimes get an impression that not a few attendees are physically present at Mass, but their minds are elsewhere.
Despite Vatican II some of us pre-baby boomers are as militant as Catholics as many of our fore fathers and mothers. I can still picture in my mind’s eye the stern Germanic features of some of the older people in the parish of my youth. I knew some K of C members who actually fought with the local KKK. They are dead now for some time. People one could call “Pillars of the Church.”
Also spent about 20 years teaching “CCD” to kids from the public school system and would assert that having “really dumb” texts forced upon us was a terrible mistake on the part of the diocese. Many of us in those years ignored the texts and tried to teach what we had learned in Catholic Schools before Vatican II. Despite that effort I truly believe at least a generation and maybe two were terribly short changed in the process. The second twenty years I have spent in teaching the Faith to adults, mostly converts.
I think the pendulum has been swinging back to something more rational with regard to liturgy and education of the young for at least 15 or 20 years now. “Kumbayah” is dead and buried and there are very few minor abuses if any in our Masses. We have Eucharistic Adoration 24/5 and working toward 24/7.
I will admit that change, when it came, came fast and hard with little effort to educate the laity about what was happening and why. There were fellow parishioners who were totally devastated by what happened. Some left the Church, some went to parishes nearby which were moving more slowly at implementing change. In the end change was inexorable and it didn’t do much good to switch. I still have a hand full of acquaintances who travel 30 or 40 miles for a Latin Mass whether EF or NO. I have recently tried the Latin liturgy and really do not like it beyond a few of the older Latin hymns which I can still sing. It was the only thing I knew until I was over 30 and I liked it then. Increased reverence in the NO would be very welcome. I sometimes get an impression that not a few attendees are physically present at Mass, but their minds are elsewhere.
Despite Vatican II some of us pre-baby boomers are as militant as Catholics as many of our fore fathers and mothers. I can still picture in my mind’s eye the stern Germanic features of some of the older people in the parish of my youth. I knew some K of C members who actually fought with the local KKK. They are dead now for some time. People one could call “Pillars of the Church.”
B
BamaRider
Guest
Nice post RWO.
I prefer the NO Mass, but I think we should work to bring more reverence to it.
For those who prefer the Latin Mass from the 1962 Missal- Do you feel more in Communion with the Saints, and the Fathers because that is how they worshipped?
I prefer the NO Mass, but I think we should work to bring more reverence to it.
For those who prefer the Latin Mass from the 1962 Missal- Do you feel more in Communion with the Saints, and the Fathers because that is how they worshipped?
L
lak611
Guest
How did you like the transitional 1967 Mass? I found a 1967 missal last year when I was going through my late father’s things after he passed away. Since I was born in 1969, the only Masses I have experienced have been the NO and the TLM (a parish in Cleveland offers the TLM, which I have attended occasionally).
B
BamaRider
Guest
Lak- Not been to Tridentine Mass since its last days at CTK in the mid 60s. I’d like to attend one, and when I find a parish in the area, I’ll check it out.
I can’t remember the 67 Missal and how it differs from the present.
I was only 10 years old, and prolly in Sister Veronica’s corner the day the filled us in what was gonna happen at the next Mass we attended.
I was in grade school the whole time VII was goin on, and they didn’t tell us much. I went to Mass one Sunday after the council closed, came out and said, “Dang, that was different”
I do remember the Sisters telling us, “look here, after Communion we want y’all to come back in the pews and sing” In the old days after Communion you went back and went deep into prayer, I recall seeing lots of folks with heads in their hands. “But Sister that ain’t how we been a doin it.” " I know, but we’re gonna do it this way now." “ok”
One of the things I remember most was the first day of school the fall after VII. For the first 6 years of my schooling the Sisters at CTK wore what I called the “Full Bird” uniforms. Big habits, long veils in back, those black pilgram shoes, with the kangaroo pockets in front they always put there hands when they weren’t writing or spanking folks. On that day I saw a Sister’s hair and ears for the first time. I was shocked. I don’t why it struck me so, perhaps because I viewed them with such awe and respect, they didn’t need ears? It was then I knew stuff was gonna be changing around here.
I can’t remember the 67 Missal and how it differs from the present.
I was only 10 years old, and prolly in Sister Veronica’s corner the day the filled us in what was gonna happen at the next Mass we attended.
I was in grade school the whole time VII was goin on, and they didn’t tell us much. I went to Mass one Sunday after the council closed, came out and said, “Dang, that was different”
I do remember the Sisters telling us, “look here, after Communion we want y’all to come back in the pews and sing” In the old days after Communion you went back and went deep into prayer, I recall seeing lots of folks with heads in their hands. “But Sister that ain’t how we been a doin it.” " I know, but we’re gonna do it this way now." “ok”
One of the things I remember most was the first day of school the fall after VII. For the first 6 years of my schooling the Sisters at CTK wore what I called the “Full Bird” uniforms. Big habits, long veils in back, those black pilgram shoes, with the kangaroo pockets in front they always put there hands when they weren’t writing or spanking folks. On that day I saw a Sister’s hair and ears for the first time. I was shocked. I don’t why it struck me so, perhaps because I viewed them with such awe and respect, they didn’t need ears? It was then I knew stuff was gonna be changing around here.
R
rwoehmke
Guest
Spanking? I keep hearing stories of how the Sisters or Brothers in Catholic Schools, rapped knuckles or smacked kids around. I had Adrian Dominicans, Franciscans in Detroit, and Munroe IHMs in high school. Worked in food service at College with Precious Blood Sisters from Ohio and never once saw a Sister physically punish a single kid. I have been harboring a sense that this physical correction was an urban myth, although I had little experience of male Religious. Maybe I just missed seeing it.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
The good Sisters of Mercy never spanked in grade school that I can remember. I did get paddled in 8th grade by a Brother of the Sacred heart for talking on a stairwell with a fellow classmate who is now a Brother of the Sacred Heart. I was wrong. What I do resent is having a “coach” smack me upside my head with his class ring because I did not understand algebra in the same 8th grade.
Physical correction was the norm back in the 60s. I got far worse from my father and mother. There may be exaggeration but, yes, physical correction did exist. It is no urban myth. I made a solemn promise to myself back then that I would never do that to my children. I have kept that promise.
L
lak611
Guest
My dad told me that he was never spanked in school back in the 1940’s, but he did get whacked on the knuckles by Sister’s ruler many times. He was a mischievous kid.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
The problems with corporal punishment are, at the margin, in the eye of the beholder. In grade school, our teachers were Sisters of St. Joseph of, I believe, Salina, Ks. Some of them would smack a kid with a packet of keys or with a knuckle on the top of the head. One I had, (the worst) would squeeze that muscle at the top of one’s shoulder. That would get a fellow in line very quickly. They did have pretty good grips, being farm girls, I suppose. I was told one music teacher was
Never, ever, ever did I see a sister do anything physical to a girl. It was always us boys, and we pretty richly deserved it. We were fairly rough ourselves. We used to laugh about the sisters’ corporal punishment, in fact, and sometimes it was hard to keep a straight face even when they were doing it. At that time, most parents did not spare the rod, and what the sisters handed out was pretty tame by comparison. We just figured it was normal, and didn’t think much of it.
Never, ever, ever did I see a sister do anything physical to a girl. It was always us boys, and we pretty richly deserved it. We were fairly rough ourselves. We used to laugh about the sisters’ corporal punishment, in fact, and sometimes it was hard to keep a straight face even when they were doing it. At that time, most parents did not spare the rod, and what the sisters handed out was pretty tame by comparison. We just figured it was normal, and didn’t think much of it.
S
SnorterLuster
Guest
I’ll throw in my 2¢ on the sisters and corporal punishment. In grade school we were taught by Felician sisters. Never in my entire grade school career did I see any sister administer any corporal punishment of any kind–with one exception. That includes hitting kids with rulers on their knuckles or paddling. The one exception was a classmate in the 8th grade uttered the “F” word on the playground. Someone turned him in and the principal, Sister Sylvania, called him into the office and washed his mouth with soap.
B
BamaRider
Guest
Dang that’ll get a guys attention.
Girls were totally off limits, but then again I don’t ever recall them getting in trouble? The girls in my CTK classes were the sweetest I’ve ever known.
The Sisters always knew the stuff to keep a guy in line. Getting called out and put in the corner, was prolly the worst. Can you imagine that today? “You put my Johnny in the corner in front of his classmates and humilated him publicly, I’m gonna sue y’all for 10 million dollars”
I once forget to put my name on a test paper in the 2nd grade. I had to stay after school and write my name on the blackboard 50 times. Talk about bad, all my friends were out playing while I spent the afternoon with Sister Francis. I tried for the ruler option, but it was no deal. “Well the ruler is over quick, and I’m back on the streets pronto.”
Funny how you carry some things all your life. The Sisters at Christ The King lived a structured, devoted life. They didn’t like unorganization AT ALL. We lined up for morning prayer preciesly at 8am on the playground before going in. We went to lunch at a certain time, recess was over at 2pm, better not be a minute late. They really disliked tardiness. “Take this envelope to the office, be back here in 5 minutes.” And you were too. Clocks were everywhere at Christ The King, I mean big ones, lunchroom, classroom, music room, hallways. You had no excuse to ever be late for something. For Christmas of 62, every boy in my second grade class got a watch under the tree.
I still carry that with me today. Whenever I step in a friends house I look to see where the clocks are, when I go in Wal Mart I check my watch, I’ve been retired 3 years, I don’t really hafta to be anywhere but old habits die hard.
Only the true baby boomer can recall stuff like that
Girls were totally off limits, but then again I don’t ever recall them getting in trouble? The girls in my CTK classes were the sweetest I’ve ever known.
The Sisters always knew the stuff to keep a guy in line. Getting called out and put in the corner, was prolly the worst. Can you imagine that today? “You put my Johnny in the corner in front of his classmates and humilated him publicly, I’m gonna sue y’all for 10 million dollars”
I once forget to put my name on a test paper in the 2nd grade. I had to stay after school and write my name on the blackboard 50 times. Talk about bad, all my friends were out playing while I spent the afternoon with Sister Francis. I tried for the ruler option, but it was no deal. “Well the ruler is over quick, and I’m back on the streets pronto.”
Funny how you carry some things all your life. The Sisters at Christ The King lived a structured, devoted life. They didn’t like unorganization AT ALL. We lined up for morning prayer preciesly at 8am on the playground before going in. We went to lunch at a certain time, recess was over at 2pm, better not be a minute late. They really disliked tardiness. “Take this envelope to the office, be back here in 5 minutes.” And you were too. Clocks were everywhere at Christ The King, I mean big ones, lunchroom, classroom, music room, hallways. You had no excuse to ever be late for something. For Christmas of 62, every boy in my second grade class got a watch under the tree.
I still carry that with me today. Whenever I step in a friends house I look to see where the clocks are, when I go in Wal Mart I check my watch, I’ve been retired 3 years, I don’t really hafta to be anywhere but old habits die hard.
Only the true baby boomer can recall stuff like that
D
dessert
Guest
That was so true 
:yup:
Yes I remember the tight ship that was run by the sisters of Mercy.
Us girls sat on one side of the room and the boys on the other and I never got to sit by the windows but if you ever got spotted gazing out them you were in trouble.
Many of us had to stay and write on the blackboard and I think it was their punishment so the sisters did not have to tell our parents as they knew what would happen if they did.
I had to write on the board once and that was all. I remember my bro got the measles and so I, who was about 10, wanted to have the measles too, because I knew I would get out of school for a week, and I wanted to so everything my bro did, So one day I finnally saw spots on my chest so I ran down to the principal and ripped open my blouse and said look I got them! She sort of laughed you know they rarely smiled and never laughed .
Then a year later I got rheumatic fever, which I think is why I now have asthma, and I never bragged about or wanted to be sick again. Then I don’t remember about a week of my life and the next week I had the worst sore throat for a week and realized why my parents had had the worse look on their faces for two weeks.
I was out of school for a few weeks and the last one was very boring.
:yup:Yes I remember the tight ship that was run by the sisters of Mercy.
Us girls sat on one side of the room and the boys on the other and I never got to sit by the windows but if you ever got spotted gazing out them you were in trouble.
Many of us had to stay and write on the blackboard and I think it was their punishment so the sisters did not have to tell our parents as they knew what would happen if they did.
I had to write on the board once and that was all. I remember my bro got the measles and so I, who was about 10, wanted to have the measles too, because I knew I would get out of school for a week, and I wanted to so everything my bro did, So one day I finnally saw spots on my chest so I ran down to the principal and ripped open my blouse and said look I got them! She sort of laughed you know they rarely smiled and never laughed .
Then a year later I got rheumatic fever, which I think is why I now have asthma, and I never bragged about or wanted to be sick again. Then I don’t remember about a week of my life and the next week I had the worst sore throat for a week and realized why my parents had had the worse look on their faces for two weeks.
I was out of school for a few weeks and the last one was very boring.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
Oh, yeah, writing lines was a far worse punishment! Five hundred lines - I will not talk in class.
Measles, mumps, chicken pox and the dreaded fear of polio. Remember it all too well. But I also remember we prayed before every class began and we prayed for our sick classmates.
And BamaRider is right on the mark about time! I am early to this day!
And we can talk about the discipline that the Sisters and Brothers instilled in us until the cows come home. I had no problem going through boot camp …I had been prepared by the Sisters and Brothers. I remember those Sisters and Brothers who taught me in my prayers.
Measles, mumps, chicken pox and the dreaded fear of polio. Remember it all too well. But I also remember we prayed before every class began and we prayed for our sick classmates.
And BamaRider is right on the mark about time! I am early to this day!
And we can talk about the discipline that the Sisters and Brothers instilled in us until the cows come home. I had no problem going through boot camp …I had been prepared by the Sisters and Brothers. I remember those Sisters and Brothers who taught me in my prayers.
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