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boppaid
Guest
That is a great question!
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mosher
Guest
I don’t really think that is the issue at all. We all know that a baby shower is really for the baby for all intents and purposes yet this is not always the case. The issue is really about perception. Does a reasonable person have cause for scandal and is it reasonable for that same said person to perceive that the shower is focused on the mother in an improper way?
People keep wanting to make this argument about the mother or the baby when in fact the really issue has to do with external perception.
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Catholic_Mike
Guest
Okay, so how about if I can think of a way to attend such a shower while making it publicly known what I believe about the situation from a moral perspective?
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valient_Lucy
Guest
I still think that the external perception has to do with how we perceive baby showers, as whether they’re for the baby or the mother. If people in the outside world view baby showers as celebrations of the mother, then yes, scandal could result. If people in the outside world view baby showers as for the baby, then scandal would be less likely.
We need to know how the outside world percieves a baby shower before we can decide if it is a cause for scandal.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
I think something else we should think about is the difference between forgiveness and tolerating sins. Obviously, this is a much bigger subject than baby showers for unwed mothers. But how do we distinguish between acts that show we have forgiven a person, and acts that seem to tolerate a person’s sin?
After all, there is a difference between forgiving a person and tolerating sins. Should a person be treated like everyone else after they have been forgiven?
For example, I would NEVER marry a man who fathered a child out of wedlock. I don’t care how young or stupid he was when he did it, or if he repented. I don’t care if he walked the entire continental US barefoot and whipped himself every day as penance, and I don’t care if he became a great Catholic who prays the entire rosary and attends Mass every day and confession once a week. The Blessed Mother could appear to me and put her arms around him and say, “This will be the next St. Augustine,” it still wouldn’t make any difference. I don’t think he should be shunned from the community, but marriage is different. When it comes to marriage, fathering a child out of wedlock is an Unforgivable sin. I do think it is possible to forgive a person but still realize that that person should not be treated like everyone else.
So, where does the lie, and how do we determine what the distinction is?
(I also had to blast unmarried fathers, since they typically get away with what they did. If I had my way, they would be in purgatory unitill the end of the world, if they are lucky.)
After all, there is a difference between forgiving a person and tolerating sins. Should a person be treated like everyone else after they have been forgiven?
For example, I would NEVER marry a man who fathered a child out of wedlock. I don’t care how young or stupid he was when he did it, or if he repented. I don’t care if he walked the entire continental US barefoot and whipped himself every day as penance, and I don’t care if he became a great Catholic who prays the entire rosary and attends Mass every day and confession once a week. The Blessed Mother could appear to me and put her arms around him and say, “This will be the next St. Augustine,” it still wouldn’t make any difference. I don’t think he should be shunned from the community, but marriage is different. When it comes to marriage, fathering a child out of wedlock is an Unforgivable sin. I do think it is possible to forgive a person but still realize that that person should not be treated like everyone else.
So, where does the lie, and how do we determine what the distinction is?
(I also had to blast unmarried fathers, since they typically get away with what they did. If I had my way, they would be in purgatory unitill the end of the world, if they are lucky.)
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boppaid
Guest
I still strongly believe that even if the shower is for the mother, it should be a great celebration. Celebration that she chose life, and a celebration that she is going to give new life from God. I think she should be encouraged and supported, despite her sin. I think anything less is judgemental and not what Jesus would do.
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gmarie21
Guest
Be careful. God just may deliver a piece of humble pie for you with such strong and unforgiving convictions. I was once like you, then that piece of humble pie delivered to me, well, it helped me to not be so unforgiving and judgemental. By the way, since we are all less than God, if He can forgive the sinner, then so should all of us.
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gam197
Guest
How about a baby shower on a girlfriend that he met at his workplace when you know that he left his wife of twenty years for this girl. I did attend but as I said earlier, it gets uncomfortable.
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deb1
Guest
I’m not second guessing you Lucy.
But you have to understand that sometimes the best Christians are those who stumbled in their past lives and overcame, with God’s help, their own sins.
Also, sometimes a person who is outwardly a good Christian can be hiding all sorts of sins that no one knows about.
But you have to understand that sometimes the best Christians are those who stumbled in their past lives and overcame, with God’s help, their own sins.
Also, sometimes a person who is outwardly a good Christian can be hiding all sorts of sins that no one knows about.
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Kendy
Guest
So, you find it disturbing that we live in a sinful, fallen world?
I work volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. I cannot be there to raise children to understand love in its proper context. While there is certainly a place for that (and I would support organizations who do that work), there is also a place for working with people after they have sinned. No matter what we do, there is always going to be sin this side of heaven, there is always going to be a woman who wants to escape responsibility. And it would be more disturbing if Christians were not present to offer charity to sinners.
The ordinary is extraordinary because the woman is in a stressful situation, whatever decision she makes will be difficult, and there are a lot of forces telling her to take the easy way out. There is nothing wrong with celebrating someone’s decision to do the right thing. Any good teacher will tell you that if you compliment kids for doing what they are supposed to do, they are more likely to repeat that behavior. I work for a company who practices the same method; our managers compliment us everytime we do our jobs, and the results is billions of dollars in sales. Human beings are fragile and they need to be affirmed; a woman dealing with an unplanned pregnancy is particularly vulnerable and needs even more affirmation. More importantly, this appraoch does a lot more to save babies’s lives than passing judgement.
No one would come to our clinic if we said, “well, you know you are just a terrible sinner and should be ashamed of yourself.” They would be going to planned parenthood in a heartbeat. Instead, we comfort them, and counsel them, and assist them, and they have their babies.
Kendy
Kendy
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Kendy
Guest
16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the “sinners” and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”
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Kendy
Guest
The real issue is, as it is always, about love and mercy.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,** it keeps no record of wrongs**. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Kendy
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Kendy
Guest
I didn’t realize we had such things as unforgivable sins.
It’s a good thing Jesus did not think so either; He took the man who betrayed him and made him into our first pope. He took a prostitute and made her the first to witness his rise from the dead; he took a murderer and turner him into the greatest apostle to the gentile. I would say they got treated at least as well as everbody else.
Your notion of unforgivale sin is quite contrary to Christian doctrine. Forgiveness that does not restore the sinner to full membership in the community is not forgiveness. And it’s not your place to speculate about how long people need to be in purgatory.
This is so like the prodigal son story. We don’t want to celebrate the son’s return to the father. We want to make sure that he suffers.
Kendy
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Kendy
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
It occurred to me today that Our Lady came back from Elizabeth’s three months along. People back then would have known that she, engaged but *not *married, rushed off “in haste” without a word to anybody, and here she is back and in a family way. And did anybody notice that nobody saw the “happy couple” for how long after the census? Egypt? What, they thought nobody would remember?
Go back to Matthew and look up the mothers on the geneology of Jesus…Tamar–who posed as a harlot because Judah did not honor his promise to her! (Gen. 38:6-30)–Ruth, the foreigner, Bethsheba who had been wife of Uriah. Scandals. The scandal implied by the Annuciation story was was not lost on the evangelist who recorded the story. It is altogether likely that the rumors about whether Jesus was legitimate were still flying.
God chose to send Jesus in a way that would cause a scandal. In fact, there is a great deal in the Bible that one could choose to take scandal about. Maybe we should reflect on that a little.
I know that there is a concern that we not give tacit approval to pre-marital or extra-marital sex. But we have to take pause when the desire to avoid scandal starts interfering with our ability to perform works of mercy.
When the mother-to-be’s friends come by and ask who the gifts are from, will it matter that you came privately, that you were not at the shower? Is anybody going to assume that you were missing out of disapproval, and not because you were too busy to come?
Does this mean you are going to feel a need to protest your innocence to everybody you run into who might have gotten wind of your largess?..“I had to help out, even though, you know, I don’t approve of girls who do that.”
I’m not certain the “send the gift by the back door” position is so tenable as I once thought. You either need to do what you do in the light–that is, do not try to hide the fact from anyone that you’re willing to help the girl, in spite of her mistakes–or else do it anonymously, getting no credit from the mother or her family for your generosity, and in so doing “not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing.”
If you do otherwise, you’re kind of trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
Go back to Matthew and look up the mothers on the geneology of Jesus…Tamar–who posed as a harlot because Judah did not honor his promise to her! (Gen. 38:6-30)–Ruth, the foreigner, Bethsheba who had been wife of Uriah. Scandals. The scandal implied by the Annuciation story was was not lost on the evangelist who recorded the story. It is altogether likely that the rumors about whether Jesus was legitimate were still flying.
God chose to send Jesus in a way that would cause a scandal. In fact, there is a great deal in the Bible that one could choose to take scandal about. Maybe we should reflect on that a little.
I know that there is a concern that we not give tacit approval to pre-marital or extra-marital sex. But we have to take pause when the desire to avoid scandal starts interfering with our ability to perform works of mercy.
When the mother-to-be’s friends come by and ask who the gifts are from, will it matter that you came privately, that you were not at the shower? Is anybody going to assume that you were missing out of disapproval, and not because you were too busy to come?
Does this mean you are going to feel a need to protest your innocence to everybody you run into who might have gotten wind of your largess?..“I had to help out, even though, you know, I don’t approve of girls who do that.”
I’m not certain the “send the gift by the back door” position is so tenable as I once thought. You either need to do what you do in the light–that is, do not try to hide the fact from anyone that you’re willing to help the girl, in spite of her mistakes–or else do it anonymously, getting no credit from the mother or her family for your generosity, and in so doing “not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing.”
If you do otherwise, you’re kind of trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
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boppaid
Guest
Kendy, I have to say that I love your posts.
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setter
Guest
The real issue is, as it is always, about the love of God as found and expressed in His infinite justice and mercy. Too often Catholics omit the “severity” clause of the fullness of God’s love.
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Romans 11: 28
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Kendy
Guest
The severity of God does not extend to those who are repentent. As Jesus illustrates, when the prodigal son returns, the father throws a party.
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mosher
Guest
There is no relation to this passage of scripture and my position. I am only taking the Churches position on how we realted to public scandal.
Love and mercy yes. However, love and mercy does not equate to tolerance and apathy.
Of course and I am in no way advocating doing anything contrary to that. However, there is a difference between doing that and providing a public celebration that could be percieved as scandalous.
Yes. I may be unreasonable in this but I know that I am not the only one with this perspective.
Good question?
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Kendy
Guest
It is very relevant. You have not taking the church’s position.
Supporting unmarried women is apathetic?
The only people who will be scandalized are those who would rather see the young woman ostracized. No one doubts that the church condemns pre-marital sex.
Kendy
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