Babylon the great, only intelligent discussion please

[deb1]

dkward2:

. Also, JW’s believe this is when the idea of God in three persons started. The pagans had God’s that were the same way, and this idea was brought in. .

I am going to leave the rest of your post to those on this board that are better at history.

I would like to comment that the concept of the trinity started from the gospel of John chapter 1, so it is not a pagan invention. It comes straight from the bible.

I would also like to know which pagan god’s have similar beliefs as the trinity. I know that there were some pagan gods who were killed and reborn. This arguement is often used against Christians to say, see you just copied your whole religion. In my view, I always thought that it was wonderful that God gave this people a means to understand our saviour’s death and resurrection before Jesus came.

 

[At_His_Feet]

The JW assertion that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity “was brought in” (as stated in post #19) is a non sequitur. What they have done is shown that some three-isms did exist in pagan relgions (at the same time ignoring dualisms and other numerical formulas, BTW). What they have not done is to show that it “was brought in”. In order to do that, some sort of early Christian record would have to be shown that makes the connection. Their reasoning on this would not hold up, for example, to the evidentiary requirements in a court of law.

 

[FCEGM]

I hope, DW, that you will use this excellent site to further your understanding of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately your sojourns among non-Catholics, especially the JWs and the Adventists, have left you with many profoundly erroneous ideas about the Church. For example (briefly):

I believe the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday during one of the Councils of Nicea.

Most definitely not. No Christians ever kept a Saturday sabbath. On Saturdays the earliest Christians lived and worshipped as Jews, evangelizing their Jewish brethren in the synagogues (a work). Their “day of rest,” the day on which they gathered to pray and worship among themselves exclusively was the following day, the Lord’s Day: Sunday.

. . .Both JWs and SDAs believe that anti-Christ means “instead of Christ,” not against him. Thus, someone claiming to be God would be an anti-Christ. In many past papal writings, the Pope is portrayed as God. I know that today, he is not seen as God by most Catholics. However, when the SDAs see Vicar of Christ on the robe of the pope, they looked up the definition of Vicar. To put it bluntly, Vicar of Christ means “on behalf/instead of Christ.” Also, I’m not sure, but I believe the original Greek phrase (meaning both letters and numbers) for “Vicar of Christ” adds up to “six-hundred, threescore, and six.”

No, but Ellen Gould White does.

It would take a very prejudiced reading of past papal writings to attempt to claim that the Pope was ever portrayed as God.

I hope you will avail yourself of the very informative materials found in the Catholic Answers Library to correct such misunderstandings as your presently have.

 

[In_His_Service]

Actually you could be more wrong about the Sabbath day.

If you choose to ignore the fact Jesus died and was buried on a Friday and that he arose early Sunday morning (and rested on the Sabbath). Then read Acts chapter 18 verses 1-11. What you will find to your amazement is that Paul preached to what is now known as the church of Corinth to both Jews and NON JEWS on every SABBATH (Saturday) for over a year and a half.

Question: Was Paul a Christian?

And BTW the Sabbath isn’t a Jewish day…it’s God’s Seal or Mark that will identify His followers. You have to go all the way back to Genesis and the Garden of Eden to understand this. This was over 2000 years before the Jews came to be.

So in perspective to the original topic, Babylon is a spiritual battle over ideology. It is a known fact that sun worship was practiced on Sunday in ancient Babylon and was passed down through Rome, straight into the Catholic Church as biblical teaching. Yet the truth be known there are absolutely no teaching anywhere in any Christian Bible transferring Sabbath to Sunday.

Good luck finding it, only 8 verses appear in the New Testament and none of those transfer the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

In fact, study the Catholic Church in depth and you will find the early church kept the Sabbath until Constantine (Roman sun worshipping ruler) banned Sabbath keeping and forced the Church to accept sun worship or Sunday to win over the pagans.

Constantine did this prior to crowning the first pope and giving him his title, “Vicarius Filii Dei (Vicar Son of God)”. Which if you take all the letters in the proper name of the pope that represent Roman numerals and add them together. You will come up with the sum of 666 (This was a standard practice for all Roman rulers).

Example:

V…5 F…0 D…500
I…1 I…1 E…0
C…100 L…50 I…1
A…0 I…1 —
R…0 I…1 501 501
I…1 __ 53
U…5* 53 112
S…0 —
— 666
112

Thus concluding that since Babylon is a spiritual war taking place right now and the Catholic Church has adopted her ways, she has become the Great Whore. Keep in mind with Bible prophecy a woman always represents a church and Christ is the Bride Groom and the church has fallen away from being a bride practicing fidelity to a harlot doing as it pleases.

 

[ChristianWAB]

Lillith:

Hello Christian WAB…My goodness you are a hard person to quote…what with all those colors and font sizes and such.

Sorry about that. I didn’t realize it made quoting more difficult.

Lillith:

…there is no Biblical basis for Sola Scriptura, Sola Fida, wed. night church services, alter calls without baptism, the sinner’s prayer, Nonessential vs. essential doctrine, multiple baptisms when the first “doesn’t stick”…these are the things I witness in my Protestant Neighbors churches. These are the true questionable beliefs that need to be addressed.

I, likewise, have seen much of what you’re talking about with the altar calls and such and, admittedly, I’ve questioned some of those non-Catholic practices. I can tell you that other threads in the past (maybe there are some open now?) have talked about multiple baptisms, but only in the sense that Protestants don’t feel that an infant baptism is valid (…examples in the book of Acts explain that the person being baptized has to BELIEVE in Jesus first; something that an infant simply can’t do). But for fear of chastizement for veering off-topic (Babylon), I’ll shut up about that now.

All I know is that both sides (Catholics and Protestants) have been accused of twisting scripture to fit their own beliefs and needs, so we’re left to pray for God to elucidate what we know and help erase our doubts. Those who are tried and true Catholics won’t ever believe that Catholicism represents a Babylon or a Beast.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

ChristianWAB:

All I know is that both sides (Catholics and Protestants) have been accused of twisting scripture to fit their own beliefs and needs, so we’re left to pray for God to elucidate what we know and help erase our doubts. Those who are tried and true Catholics won’t ever believe that Catholicism represents a Babylon or a Beast.

Not just “tried and true” Catholics, but many mainstream protestant theologians as well as historical secular scholars. Some point out that all of the Roman Emperors were worshiped as gods themselves. Roman Emperors also made their citizens get a tattoo on their hands which identified them as Roman Citizens. Thus, most people believe it was either apostate Jerusalem which rejected the Messiah (which Catholics and Orthodox don’t) and/or pagan Rome before the Roman Empire collapsed. It was prophecied that Rome would collapse, and she had already in AD70 at the burning of Rome. If you go read the Church Fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch (successor of Peter & John and Bishop of Antioch) it would become evident to you that the Church is the Catholic Church. It is Saint Ignatius who first refers to the Church as “katholikos”, that is, universal. The Catholic Church is really the only one that fits this description. There are Catholics in all parts of the world and something like 24 different rites of Catholicism. 3 or 4 Western Rites and tons of Eastern Rites. Many of which were founded by the Apostles themselves, others, turned into rites by evangalization. You start off by saying that you’re not sure if Catholicism is the whore or not, but it becomes more evident everytime you post that you believe it is.

You can read the Fathers at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library here:

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/

 

[ChristianWAB]

awfulthings9:

If “they meant the martyers that preceded the Catholic Church”, as you “think”, then that would mean that the Catholic Church came later. It would be really hard for the CC to be “drunk on the blood” of those martyrs if they were martyred before (as you stated) the CC even existed. Your logic is self-defeating.

I’m afraid you lost me on that one. Prophecy is about forecasting the future, so the martyrs would absolutely HAVE to precede those who would become “drunk” on their blood.

Hypothetical Example: A sixteen year old teenager who raids his father’s wine cellar, grabs a bottle of his prized 1955 Chateau Cheval Blanc and his 1912 Lafite Rothschild and pounds them down. The kid hadn’t even been born when those wines were made, but he still managed to get drunk off of them.

So, regardless of when Peter and Paul were killed in 63 & 64 or 67 and 68 A.D., their deaths still preceded the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church by close to 300 years.

 

[deb1]

In His Service:

Constantine did this prior to crowning the first pope and giving him his title, “Vicarius Filii Dei (Vicar Son of God)”. Which if you take all the letters in the proper name of the pope that represent Roman numerals and add them together. You will come up with the sum of 666 (This was a standard practice for all Roman rulers).

Example:

V…5 F…0 D…500
I…1 I…1 E…0
C…100 L…50 I…1
A…0 I…1 —
R…0 I…1 501 501
I…1 __ 53
U…5* 53 112
S…0 —
— 666
112

Thus concluding that since Babylon is a spiritual war taking place right now and the Catholic Church has adopted her ways, she has become the Great Whore. Keep in mind with Bible prophecy a woman always represents a church and Christ is the Bride Groom and the church has fallen away from being a bride practicing fidelity to a harlot doing as it pleases.

Are you pulling our legs? According to your profile, your religion is Sectarian and your birthday is June 6, 1966.

As a horror buff I know that June 6, 1966 was the birthdate of Rosemary’s baby. The word Sectarian is defined in the dictionary as :1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.

2. Adhering or confined to the dogmatic
limits of a
sect or denomination; partisan. 3. Narrow-minded;
parochial.
NOUN:1. A member of a sect. 2. One characterized by

bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

ChristianWAB:

I’m afraid you lost me on that one. Prophecy is about forecasting the future, so the martyrs would absolutely HAVE to precede those who would become “drunk” on their blood.

Hypothetical Example: A sixteen year old teenager who raids his father’s wine cellar, grabs a bottle of his prized 1955 Chateau Cheval Blanc and his 1912 Lafite Rothschild and pounds them down. The kid hadn’t even been born when those wines were made, but he still managed to get drunk off of them.

So, regardless of when Peter and Paul were killed in 63 & 64 or 67 and 68 A.D., their deaths still preceded the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church by close to 300 years.

Here we go again, you believe that the Catholic Church was established by Constantine when he became a Christian. Too bad. Constantine was baptized by a heretical Arian bishop which denied the divinity of the Lord Jesus (as did Constantine). He never established anything either, by the way, he just made it legal. The Catholic Church and the Fathers have always maintained that Jesus is the Word of God and have never denied the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

where to start?

Read Daniel 7 in context, it has nothing to do with changing the sabbath from saturday to sunday. It is a great example of adventist reading into the text.

This pharaphrase is closer to the hebrew in meaning,

Daniel 7:25 (The Message)
Then he will blaspheme the High God, persecute the followers of the High God, and** try to get rid of sacred worship and moral practice**. God’s holy people will be persecuted by him for a time, two times, half a time.

Romans 14 proves that some christians worshipped on saturday and others on sunday. Thus Sunday worship existed in NT times. I think the Didache also refers to sunday worship.

Daniel 7:25 in the hebrew is simply saying this king who will go after God’s people wants to put an end to worship of the most high god. It is not just a changing of days.

While your at it read Daniel 8 in different translations so, you can see how much SDA are reading into the text there. Daniel 8:14 is their proof text for great disapointment, heavenly saturary doctrine.

I think the book of Revelation was written about 90 AD if I remember correctly about 20 years after the fall of Jerusalem 70 AD. ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM
Josephus writes about this in his Wars of the Jews. So, the possiblity that Babylon of Revelations is in fact code for the destruction of Jerusalem does make sense.

 

[awfulthings9]

ChristianWAB:

I’m afraid you lost me on that one. Prophecy is about forecasting the future, so the martyrs would absolutely HAVE to precede those who would become “drunk” on their blood.

Hypothetical Example: A sixteen year old teenager who raids his father’s wine cellar, grabs a bottle of his prized 1955 Chateau Cheval Blanc and his 1912 Lafite Rothschild and pounds them down. The kid hadn’t even been born when those wines were made, but he still managed to get drunk off of them.

So, regardless of when Peter and Paul were killed in 63 & 64 or 67 and 68 A.D., their deaths still preceded the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church by close to 300 years.

This would be absolutely true if Revelation meant that the church, like the teenager in your example, was literally going to “drink” the blood and become intoxicated on it. Do you really think that is what would happen? Does blood have alcoholic qualities that you know of? Rather, the “drunk” reference refers, as any scholar I have read believes, that they will become intoxicated with spilling the blood of martyrs, which cannot happen chronilogically as explained in my earlier post.

 

[In_His_Service]

Semper Fi:

Here we go again, you believe that the Catholic Church was established by Constantine when he became a Christian. Too bad. Constantine was baptized by a heretical Arian bishop which denied the divinity of the Lord Jesus (as did Constantine). He never established anything either, by the way, he just made it legal. The Catholic Church and the Fathers have always maintained that Jesus is the Word of God and have never denied the divinity of Jesus.

Actually if you read my post correctly you would see that I indicated the church’s existence prior to Constantine and that it was his influence that corrupted the church not build it.

Furthermore, you are absolutely right! He did legalize Christianity in Rome. The only catch was you had to do it on Sunday not Sabbath.

Hmmm…I wonder if that is what God intended when He wrote the Ten Commandments, “Thou Shall…Thou Shall NOT…Thou Shall NOT”. Yet when you get to the 4th He simply starts with, “Remember”.

Silly God…did He think we would forget???

*Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:7-9*

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

In His Service:

Actually if you read my post correctly you would see that I indicated the church’s existence prior to Constantine and that it was his influence that corrupted the church not build it.

Furthermore, you are absolutely right! He did legalize Christianity in Rome. The only catch was you had to do it on Sunday not Sabbath.

Hmmm…I wonder if that is what God intended when He wrote the Ten Commandments, “Thou Shall…Thou Shall NOT…Thou Shall NOT”. Yet when you get to the 4th He simply starts with, “Remember”.

Silly God…did He think we would forget???

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:7-9

Please prove to me your so-called “catch” using historical documents.

We celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday because it is the day the Lord rose from the dead, the beginning of the New Covenant.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Daniel Marsh:

where to start?

Read Daniel 7 in context, it has nothing to do with changing the sabbath from saturday to sunday. It is a great example of adventist reading into the text.

This pharaphrase is closer to the hebrew in meaning,

Daniel 7:25 (The Message)
Then he will blaspheme the High God, persecute the followers of the High God, and** try to get rid of sacred worship and moral practice**. God’s holy people will be persecuted by him for a time, two times, half a time.

Romans 14 proves that some christians worshipped on saturday and others on sunday. Thus Sunday worship existed in NT times. I think the Didache also refers to sunday worship.

Daniel 7:25 in the hebrew is simply saying this king who will go after God’s people wants to put an end to worship of the most high god. It is not just a changing of days.

While your at it read Daniel 8 in different translations so, you can see how much SDA are reading into the text there. Daniel 8:14 is their proof text for great disapointment, heavenly saturary doctrine.

I think the book of Revelation was written about 90 AD if I remember correctly about 20 years after the fall of Jerusalem 70 AD. ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM
Josephus writes about this in his Wars of the Jews. So, the possiblity that Babylon of Revelations is in fact code for the destruction of Jerusalem does make sense.

Daniel,

There is no proof that the book of Revelation was written before or after the fall of Jerusalem or after the burning of Rome. It could have been written any time during 68 AD - 90 AD.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

In His Service,

Again, I asked for historical documents. Not Bible quotes. Even Satan can quote Sacred Scripture. You allege that there was a catch with Constantine’s legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire. I maintain that you still cannot prove this using any historical documents (i.e. church councils, other historical documents etc.) The Roman Empire is known for making historical recordings, so you’d think that something as big as this would have been recorded in the secular world or by secular historians of the times.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The theological justification for keeping the Sunday, is that it, and not the Sabbath, is the day of the Resurrection.

The OT was a preparation for the good things made known in Christ - that’s why we don’t have a Levitical priesthood, keep the Feast of Weeks, bother with circumcision, or say the Shema. We belong to Christ - not to Moses or Ezra.

And none of this worrying about the Sabbath has any connection with Babylon the Great - nor even with Babylon; not even with Babylon 5 ##

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

In His Service:

As you were!

I hate to break the news to you but the Bible is the most accurate historical document you will ever find.

Good luck to you!

Ah! You said that Constantine changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday! I said he did not. I guess you cannot prove your allegations, so I will take that as your apology.

One more thing I would like to note, is that as Latin-Rite Catholics we have the Mass said EVERY day of the week, not just Sunday.

God bless,

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…continued & ended]

But, under the powerful influence of Satan the Devil, “who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9), they have done it! (To learn more about the change from God’s holy Sabbath to the pagan Sunday, please write for our free booklet, The Beast of Revelation.)

Obviously, then, to really follow what the bible teaches, you must observe the seventh-day Sabbath—from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

The Holy Bible is a book (or rather, a library) - it’s not Christ. It can stop us seeing Him. It can become a false god, causing us to forget the true God. His Will is not to be disobeyed - “If you love Me, keep My commandments”; neither is it a shackle, to keep us observing commandments which He has fulfilled, by exhausting them. If the Sabbath is still obligatory for us, why not tithes, circumcision, and the wearing of fringes ? If it still remains in force - why spiritualise the Psalms so as to interpret them of Jesus ? Where is the consistency in insisting on treating one aspect of the OT as still valid, but not the other ? If a Christianising of the texts about the Sabbath is wrong, so is a Christianising of the texts about the Messiah. To accept Jesus as Lord, and also to insist on the validity of the Sabbath (despite His Resurrection), is inconsistent.​

But if you are willing to compromise on the very commandment that points out the true God,

We have the revelation of God in Jesus Christ - no commandment is the source of our knowing Him: His grace is, by which He is graciously revealed to us as the Son of His Father. No commandment could tell us that - if it could, then the Jews would be confessing Christ as Lord: which they have so far not done. Peter was called blessed, not for keeping the Sabbath, but for receiving from the Father the revelation of Who Jesus Christ is. Days are trivial, in comparison with Christ. This insistence on Sabbath-keeping as a salvation issue dethrones Christ, and sets up a day in His place - as if “the Son of man” were not “Lord even of the Sabbath”.​

Something is wrong with a theology which unChurches almost all Christians, simply because of a day. This is not what one expects of a theology founded on salvation by the grace of God alone. ##

then you might very well end up observing the “day of the Sun” right along with the vaunted majority—the countless millions that prophecy shows will soon be subjected to the greatest tribulation in human history because of their rebellion against the true God! (cf. Matthew 24:21-22).

St. Paul & St.John say nothing of the sinfulness of observing the wrong day - they are concerned with the wickedness in the heart of man. If it was so important for Christians to be Sabbath-keepers, why is nothing said of the sin of not keeping it ? A salvation issue is hardly a trivial matter - they mention many. And that is not one of them.​

 

[Michael_Francis]

This thread has been “pruned” of a massive cut & paste job that violates forum content rule # 1 which also took the thread far off topic.

Please do carry on.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Michael Francis:

This thread has been “pruned” of a massive cut & paste job that violates forum content rule # 1 which also took the thread far off topic.

Please do carry on.

Before doing so - is it OK to answer parts of them ?​

Or do replies to c/p posts which quote them, qualify as c/p posts themselves ?

TY

Back to the topic.