Bachelor's Party: Liquor, Carousing and Girls on Poles

[Epistemes]

I’ve grateful to God that He’s given me the ability to finally open up both to myself and to so many of you here about a certain problem which has been the root of my disobedience in the past. Please bear with me as I try to make myself understood so that there are as few misunderstandings concerning the situation.

Last year, during June 2007, the company which I work for scheduled an offsite team building “conference” where all of us employees would engage in activities to help us function as separate departments and as a company. We ended up staying the night at a really luxurious hotel. Never wanting to be a loner, and this being the first time ever that I’ve gotten to experience something like this, I wanted to participate in what everybody was doing throughout the day and evening hours. During the day, of course, was the actual conference, but in the evening was karaoke, billiards and an open (liquor) bar.

Having just converted to Catholicism only a couple months prior, and intent on being a good Christian, I decided that even if I drank too much that I wouldn’t act foolish or obscenely. Well, that failed!!! I voluntarily followed around all the guys who, though older than me, are nonetheless the most approximate in my age, tastes, and general worldview (these “guys” are pretty pivotal to this post, so I’ll describe more about them later) - and I followed them around and as the night advanced ultimately gave in to my Christian principles, undermined my faith, etc…

I went to confession because I felt horrible for what I had done.

It didn’t seem long – no more than a month – before I began a steady streak doing pretty much the same thing each and every week, going to bars, strip clubs, carousing, lusting, talking filthy about women, swearing, and then…every Saturday morning, feeling sorry for myself and my sins, going to confession. Rinse, wash, repeat.

These “guys” who I hung out with are my co-workers. Some of us no longer work in the same building or on the same floor, but there’s always plenty of interaction between us on a weekly basis. I’m currently 26, single, and a bit conservative (even when I’m supposedly disobedient) – most of these guys are at least 30 to 40 years of age, most are married, and generally irreligious…but not amoral. Principled, but sinful. For these guys, smoking crack is just stupid, but watching girls dance on a pole is entertainment. I can no longer agree, but I do see where they are coming from…especially since I’ve been there, having participated in it.

Here’s the thing: As I’ve said in some of my more recent threads, I’m trying my hardest to become more spiritual and religious than I have been, trying to put my more disobedient behavior behind me – but there’s no conceivable way for me to escape these co-workers of mine. Now that I’ve been formally inducted in the group, having made fairly good friends with a couple of the guys, who, remember, are close co-workers, I’ll always be invited to their outings, and I can’t just keep on saying “maybe” to their invites or not showing up with no word. I feel bad because I don’t want to seem unsocial or unfriendly. I’m already starting to feel the brunt of my actions by being accused of “standing” so-and-so up (when I never said yes), or one guy friend always asking, “How come you don’t get out anymore?”

To make matters worse, these guys – all of them – know I’m Catholic, and all of them know from how I’ve belittled my Christian faith that I’ve practically disowned it. To suddenly say, “Sorry, guys, but I won’t be getting out anymore because those things don’t seem like good behaviors” not only sounds elitist and would cause them to heckle me, but it just doesn’t seem like a very good option considering how close we must work together.

I am, in a word, trapped by my own actions.

 

[beckycmarie]

You’re only trapped if you allow pride - being concerned that you will be made fun of for your faith - to keep you there. My advice is just to tell them no thanks, and if they ask why just tell the truth. Yes, they may give you a hard time, but that can help you overcome the pride by developing humility.

 

[SarahR]

You received many graces from the sacraments-call on those graces and do the right thing. You are worth so much more than that garbage.

I’m not a guy, so I couldn’t give you a good line to use when you talk to them. But I have known guys who are into those sorts of things but actually respect guys who aren’t. Are there other guys from work to hang out with? Could you suggest doing other stuff, or make other plans for yourself?

Look at how much you gave up (or would have lost had you died)…such a small thing, really, to give up some nights out with the boys. God is giving you a chance to redeem yourself. You wore the name Christian while you were watching those women, etc…now live up to your name.

Will pray for you!

 

[vee8]

The first and most important commandment, let it slip and the others will soon follow.
I am the Lord your God you shall have no other Gods before me.

This includes wine women and song, friends, and your own pride. Jesus said leave everything and follow me. I dont suggest you quit your job because at the next one you may fall into the same group of guys. I say put what God thinks of you before what anyone else thinks of you and stop going to ungodly places with these guys. Fr Corapi said “Im not going to hell for anyone else” well you have to put your foot down and change your life.

Avoid the occasion of sin by taking up a new hobby or sport, or volunteer at the church or soup kitchen so you can say to these guys sorry no Ive got practice/ volunteering to go to. Pray you will meet more wholesome friends there too,

I know the wash rinse repeat situation so you have to be ready to change your life and also to pray. If you dont say it already say the chaplet of Divine Mercy.
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

You might also be interested in this book
amazon.com/Gut-Check-Confronting-Manhood-Twenties/dp/1890626767

As for afraid of being heckled I completely understand and with Gods grace you can overcome your fear of that. Look at your king up on the cross he got heckled too and as His followers so will we.

 

[Epistemes]

I got to thinking this morning that maybe there’s a way to compromise on this situation all the while remaining pure.

Like I said, these guys aren’t amoral and it’s only under certain circumstances that I feel drawn in the web of disobedience. For example, if I were to show up, play a few rounds of pool all the while sipping on something non-alcoholic (or truly limiting what I drink alcoholic) then I might be able to give better witness, to stand up to myself in the face of adversity, etc.

Whenever I went to confession last year for this same ol’ sin, my priest always used to tell me that there was nothing wrong with going out, but that I needed to stick to my principles, to know the difference between right and wrong, and I needed to exemplify this.

True, this might be difficult, at first. Peer pressure is a dangerous agent, and it’s through peer pressure that I succumbed in the first place. But I gave in last year because I needed acceptance – but I’ve grown tired of that acceptance, even if I’m uncomfortable with breaking all ties.

This solution carries with it certain risks, of course, so therefore it may not be the best plan of action. While I appreciate all the replies so far, I do not and cannot see this as a black and white matter. To suddenly break all ties and seemingly have nothing to do with these guys seems just as unChristian as participating in all their hijinx.

I’d be interested in more replies and comments, though.

 

[utunumsint]

I got to thinking this morning that maybe there’s a way to compromise on this situation all the while remaining pure.

Like I said, these guys aren’t amoral and it’s only under certain circumstances that I feel drawn in the web of disobedience. For example, if I were to show up, play a few rounds of pool all the while sipping on something non-alcoholic (or truly limiting what I drink alcoholic) then I might be able to give better witness, to stand up to myself in the face of adversity, etc.

Whenever I went to confession last year for this same ol’ sin, my priest always used to tell me that there was nothing wrong with going out, but that I needed to stick to my principles, to know the difference between right and wrong, and I needed to exemplify this.

True, this might be difficult, at first. Peer pressure is a dangerous agent, and it’s through peer pressure that I succumbed in the first place. But I gave in last year because I needed acceptance – but I’ve grown tired of that acceptance, even if I’m uncomfortable with breaking all ties.

This solution carries with it certain risks, of course, so therefore it may not be the best plan of action. While I appreciate all the replies so far, I do not and cannot see this as a black and white matter. To suddenly break all ties and seemingly have nothing to do with these guys seems just as unChristian as participating in all their hijinx.

I’d be interested in more replies and comments, though.

You know the parable from Jesus about not being unevenly yoked? This seems to be one of those situations. I’d recommend not breaking your ties with those guys, but finding a group of believers who can support you in your faith walk. Some kind of young adults group that knows how to have a good time without falling into sin. This will give you strength to stand up to your principles when you are with the other guys.

I was in your exact situation till I was around 27 years old. A priest at a local church I attended from time to time, called for volunteers for a youth outreach program. They wanted young adults to minister to highschool kids. It was the best thing I ever got involved with. Lots of fun, and lots of work. Through it, I connected into the Catholic young adult community and met my wife.

Of course, making these kinds of connections can take time, and you’ve only just returned. But it is definitely something to keep an eye out for.

Oh, and by the way, there are some situations that are, in my opinion, off limits. Strip clubs are definetly one of those. If your friendship with them involves you attending these places, you should reevaluate your frienship with them.

God bless,
Ut

 

[water]

This solution carries with it certain risks, of course, so therefore it may not be the best plan of action. While I appreciate all the replies so far, I do not and cannot see this as a black and white matter. To suddenly break all ties and seemingly have nothing to do with these guys seems just as unChristian as participating in all their hijinx.

You can’t set a good Christian example to others by doing things that aren’t Christians.

You are pressured to lose friends. You are afraid of your co-workers telling you behind your back that now you are trying to do good things.

If you die not in the state of grace, what friends do you think you have after death?

Be a good Christian yourself first.

 

[onaquest]

Post this on the Prayer Intentions. You have mine.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Epistemes,
well, many of us have gone through what you’re experiencing, in some form or another. The problem for you right now it seems, is that you really do not have knowledge, that is, “a heart knowledge,” of why a sin is a sin.

For instance, going to a strip club, with your peers. Now, you understand that the Church would not condone this, and would call it sinful, which of course is true. However, you yourself, other than having the information that the Church has provided, really don’t understand the evil nature of it. In other words, its not actually full knowledge. You need to understand why it is evil, otherwise, you will see it as good, which is what we often do, when we sin. The pleasure received seems good, compared to the sacrifice of refusing the temptation.

I’m going to quote a wise priest, whom I’ve quoted before in this forum, who gave me this advice during one of my many confessions after my indiscretions.

He said, “until the reason not to sin becomes stronger than the desire, you will continue to sin.”

So, in order for the reason, to become stronger than the desire, you need to look into the sin you are prone to, and gain the full knowledge of why it is a sin.

That being said, nothing can begin without an active prayer life. That is, don’t leave your home, before you’ve sat down and had some prayer time, and that means, praying from the heart. Don’t go to sleep at night, before you’ve had prayer time. This must be everyday, not just when you feel like it. Receive the sacraments, as often as you can. The Holy Eucharist is our spiritual food, which nourishes us.

Without an active prayer life, you will not receive the transforming grace from Jesus Christ, which is so necessary in getting through the temptations of life.

Prayer is the essential element in your spiritual growth.

Jim

 

[Epistemes]

You can’t set a good Christian example to others by doing things that aren’t Christians.

Be a good Christian yourself first.

Yes, you’re more than right and I agree wholeheartedly with you. In fact, that is the point I was aiming at!

True, at this point in time, I am a bit frightened by what “friends” and “co-workers” might say because my faith isn’t particularly strong. I read a passage last night out of John’s Gospel that accused me, and I began to understand my position:

Although he had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” And so they could not believe, because Isaiah also said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they might not look with their eyes, and understand with their heart and turn— and I would heal them.” Isaiah said this because he saw his glory and spoke about him.
Nevertheless many, even of the authorities, believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human glory more than the glory that comes from God. (John 12:37-43)

Like the authorities who believe but who are afraid to say so, I also stand condemned, I know. But, again, these guys aren’t completely as amoral as my subject line or much of the body of my original post suggests. Sinful, yes, but who isn’t?

This doesn’t mean I’m attempting to justify drunkenness, lewd talking, even the going to strip clubs that sometimes happens, but ***sometimes ***is the key word. There are plenty of other instances where there is a gathering, where games are played, and people have fun.

I’m not saying I’m Christ, much less capable of the things many excellent saints were capable of doing, but to isolate myself entirely from these type of gatherings is what seems just as unChristian as if I were to back to a strip club or what-have-you. If I’m capable of strengthening my personal will power by learning to say “no” when the crowd is saying “yes” then it will be a powerful first step for me. I don’t intend to abuse the sacrament of confession ever again, so I know that either I learn to reform my habits when in the company of non-Christians or else I join a monastery.

 

[Epistemes]

Epistemes,
well, many of us have gone through what you’re experiencing, in some form or another. The problem for you right now it seems, is that you really do not have knowledge, that is, “a heart knowledge,” of why a sin is a sin.

For instance, going to a strip club, with your peers. Now, you understand that the Church would not condone this, and would call it sinful, which of course is true. However, you yourself, other than having the information that the Church has provided, really don’t understand the evil nature of it. In other words, its not actually full knowledge. You need to understand why it is evil, otherwise, you will see it as good, which is what we often do, when we sin. The pleasure received seems good, compared to the sacrifice of refusing the temptation.

Jim,

You’re not entirely wrong, but you’re not entirely right either.

You are right that certain sins remain a mystery to me. If anyone out of the group of guys who I hang out with might be particularly unprincipled or amoral, it would be me. Since walking away from the Church in September, not only have I questioned Catholic values but also traditional values. I’ve laid awake many nights wondering if I had any morals or values of my own. It’s when I realized that I had very few principles to act upon that I became scared.

However, refusing to accept certain values or morals isn’t the same as not knowing what makes something sinful. I have a pretty good understanding why masturbation is sinful, but, like Nietzsche, I may simply choose to relegate the action as beyond categorization as good or evil; I could simply say, and have said, “It’s biological.” Claiming something is biological is on par with Carl Sagan’s famous statement that this world exists due to random gas clouds randomly colliding. If what Carl Sagan says is true, then all of life, including his own death, is an act of randomness. Carl Sagan’s worldview may inform him that there is no order in the universe, therefore Carl Sagan is an atheist. Someone claiming that masturbation is just as biological as sneezing is the next best thing to atheistic.

As far as strip clubs are concerned, I’m finished with them. I truly am. Honestly, I never enjoyed myself there, even from an immoral point-of-view. Sexual displeasure aside, though, it didn’t take me long until I felt truly sorry for these girls who earn their way by cheap prostitution. Of all the girls I talked to, I never met a single one who was happy with what she was doing. And I began to despise myself for encouraging them to earn another dollar.

 

[FlatAffect]

If I were you, I’d cut that behavior off right now. It is better to be holy & righteous in God’s eye than to carouse with your buddies at work. Turn to God in prayer about it. Ask Him to help you find another job and explain your reasons why. And reject this behavior.

The corporate world is full of dirty sexual ethics and other types of ethics that are not compatible with a religious lifestyle. I’ve never heard these things addressed at Mass. It’s easy to fall into these traps because you don’t want to lose your job or lose out on a better paying job because you don’t play along. But trust God, and He will take care of you.

Although I am a woman, I DO understand how you feel. I used to work at a company where the men AND the women would go to strip clubs after work. They would use this time to socialize, hang out and climb in the corporate standings. We were back at the office doing all the work while they did nothing but carouse and got away with it because they were in the “in crowd.” Some of the women started attending because they saw that it was the way to climb the corporate ladder AND they thought it would be cool to be perceived as being “open” to liking woman by their fellow male co-workers. And some of them were lesbians and bi-sexual, too, so they actually wanted to go.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Epistemes;
it comes down to examining your own conscience.

However, knowing that something is a sin, verses knowing the reason for not sinning, are two different things.

Knowing that the sin is offensive to God, is more than just me telling you about it. It must become part of your own understanding and relationship with God, before the reason can be stronger than the desire. Reason here is God given reason, which is based on love. Love for God, is the reason not to commit the sin. Love for God can not be obtained without a relationship with God, through Jesus Christ.

True freedom isn’t the privilege of choosing good from evil, but having the ability to choose only good.

This ability is a God given virtue which can only be developed, through prayer.

The example you give of Nietzsche, is the suppression of conscience, which isn’t the same thing.

Jim

 

[bullfrog543]

all i can say god works in mysterious ways - i was in seattle playing poker with my dad dads favorite game and he took me to a table dance club. when i found there was only pop on the list to drink and at $5 a cup i new something was fishy my dad took a women in the corner and paid her one by one they tested me more beatiful each and every moment and all i said to each i didnt believe in it we were their by mistake. then we left.

the next day my dad lent me some money for two poker tournaments the second one i talked to some that won the tournament and couldnt loose in the game even when i was the under dog. i won 1 st place out of 50 $500 latter and pride written all over my dads face.

in my eyes god tested me and gave me something in return so dear in my life that i would always keep

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Epistemes,

             here's an article by Father Mateo, which says part of what I was trying to express. Notice the part in bold, which I hi-lighted.

Masturbation a Venial or Mortal Sin

Father Mateo, July 29, 1992

| 3) Is self-abuse categorized as a venial or mortal sin and
| why?

Archbishop Borders of Baltimore, in his 1987 pastoral, “On Human
Sexuality”, writes: “Authentic human sexuality should open one
(person) to another in a deep and abiding relationship. Masturbation has within itself not even the possibility of such relationship. It is neither unitive nor procreative, and is merely sexual actuation with very little true sexual meaning. Masturbation is representative of a degree of sexual immaturity and often begins during adolescence, before real maturity is attained. As maturity increases, one would expect that the individual would begin to use the help of grace to overcome this tendency.”

God’s grace comes to us through prayer and self-denial, through
taking up our cross daily to follow Christ. Those who love Mary and
pray to her for help find that this pure and loving Mother gives them
what they need by the grace of her Son to achieve or to recover
purity of body and mind.

In itself, masturbation is a mortal sin because it negates the whole
purpose of one of our most sacred powers, the power to fashion
family and procreate human life. But as Archbishop Borders writes:
Immaturity and habit can be serious factors which interfere with an individual’s freedom, thus lessening SUBJECTIVELY the moral responsibility of a person … therefore, one may realize that there is reason to question the moral seriousness of each individual act, and yet there is need to work toward real change in the situation if the individual is to grow into moral maturity."cin.org/mateo/m920729e.html

This has to do with masturbation specifically, but it also encompasses other choices we make. Maturity in this level, has a lot to due with culpability and we all mature in different areas of our life at different times, especially in the areas of sexuality.

As the priest in my previous post explained, until the “reason,” to avoid the sin becomes stronger than the desire, you will fall into that sin.

That reason, can only be developed through God given grace, which is obtained through a prayerful relationship with him.

If I accept a moral value as being true without full understanding of it, I’m almost certain to fail when desire overrides reason.

Jim

 

[bullfrog543]

i agree desire is always there so im posting something you will probablly never understand its sort of sienticific explenation of lust and love

so (1?9 => eyes, hear,
touch, I am)
((((1?9 = 3.14… . (need eyes,
need ears, need touch, I am, I
need, I see, I believe, I saw,
need taste, need smells, need
dictionary,ill)i will)i think)i just)

This is to fight the harlet in
babalon the government
tricked me into doing this for
years and couldnt back it off.
PREPARE

 

[Epistemes]

As the priest in my previous post explained, until the “reason,” to avoid the sin becomes stronger than the desire, you will fall into that sin.

That reason, can only be developed through God given grace, which is obtained through a prayerful relationship with him.

If I accept a moral value as being true without full understanding of it, I’m almost certain to fail when desire overrides reason.

Jim,

I agree with you.

There’s a story which Buddhists tell: Apparently, one day a man was walking through a village. While walking through the village, he noticed a man reading a sutra. The man crouched in front of the man reading the sutra and asked, “What are you reading?” The man replied, “A sutra of infinite wisdom.” The other man asked, “Do you realize what you are reading?” The man reading replied, “Yes, I understand.” The man asked again, “Do you realize what you are reading?” The man reading replied, “Yes, I understand.” The asked a third time, “Do you realize what you are reading?” The man reading replied again, “Yes, I understand.” Finally, the man began sobbing and said, “You understand, but you do not realize.”

I think Fr. Mateo might enjoy this story.

 

[water]

but to isolate myself entirely from these type of gatherings is what seems just as unChristian as if I were to back to a strip club or what-have-you.

You got it confused .

Would you jump into a fire if your co-workers do it?
Would you drive and get drunk if your co-workers do it?
Would you like to commit adultery if your co-workers do it?

Is saying NO to those things above called “UnChristians” to you.

You think it is unchristian…uhh…perhaps…that is not your point - you like what you were doing while hanging out with your friends…and Satan is convincing you to continue doing it …

yeah…it is unChristian…Satan said…but it ain’t so.

You put your souls at risk by going to some gatherings where you will commit mortal sins…and when you die of this state - Hell is where you end up my friend.

If you know upfront that this gatherings will allow ones to commit sins, then it is better for you to say No. Do not put yourself in the situation where temptation will test you and eventually you yield to it.

Saying No to someone who wants you to sin shows more Christians acts and someday if not all…some of your friends will be thankful to you for what you ought to do.

 

[Epistemes]

You got it confused .

Would you jump into a fire if your co-workers do it?
Would you drive and get drunk if your co-workers do it?
Would you like to commit adultery if your co-workers do it?

Is saying NO to those things above called “UnChristians” to you.

You think it is unchristian…uhh…perhaps…that is not your point - you like what you were doing while hanging out with your friends…and Satan is convincing you to continue doing it …

yeah…it is unChristian…Satan said…but it ain’t so.

You put your souls at risk by going to some gatherings where you will commit mortal sins…and when you die of this state - Hell is where you end up my friend.

If you know upfront that this gatherings will allow ones to commit sins, then it is better for you to say No. Do not put yourself in the situation where temptation will test you and eventually you yield to it.

Saying No to someone who wants you to sin shows more Christians acts and someday if not all…some of your friends will be thankful to you for what you ought to do.

I was afraid this level of misunderstanding would eventually ensue.

Pardon me if this reply sounds a little impatient, but unfortunately it’s not I who have things confused. Nowhere am I defending the sinful actions of my coworkers, nowhere am I saying that I wish to continue participating in the sinful actions they do commit, and nowhere am I saying anything that you insinuate above.

If you read my original reply to you again, you will see that I clarified that there are several occassions when there are gatherings that include nothing more than friendly chatter and games (such as pool, darts, or air hockey). We’re not talking about some scruffy bunch of miscreants who beat their wives and who micturate in the kitchen sink! We’re talking about human beings, just like you and me, who have the ability to be good people. When even my priest attempted to vindicate these “friends” (last year), I know full well that they’re not some evil brood waiting to intentionally destroy my soul. If anyone intentionally destroys my soul, it will be me and for actions I knowingly make – but I don’t intend to do such, not now, not by the power of Christ.

I *don’t *disagree with you that saying ‘no’ to someone who wants you to sin is the correct path to walk down, and it’s a path that I will have to exercise in the presence of all non-Christians, including my co-workers. Would I jump into a fire if they did? Would I drive and get drunk? Would I commit adultery if they did? No, and if I now have the ability through Christ to say “no” when asked to jump in the fire, then why must I isolate myself from the world, to join some proverbial monastery, rather than attempting to live as witness to what Catholicism is all about? If everytime I fail in the real, secular world I must isolate myself from that which caused me to fall, rather than overcoming myself and my faults, then I might as well give up now.

It really makes no sense – and I have no idea where I made myself so misunderstood on my intentions concerning this matter.

I’m not defending their sins! I am defending their humanity and their ability to be good people! And I’m definitely not saying I intend on continuing to live a sinful lifestyle!

 

[jerry117711]

have you all seen the movie ten commandments yet the best movie ever made