Back, and questions

[Cinette]

I see what your saying.

I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause htey don’t see a certain way, I honestly do not think I can ever be Catholic, cause their are so many things that the RCC teaches that is stuff I would never go under.

Sola Scripture, which I believe is a person’s own interpretation of the bible, right?

Hey, you have been on these forums before and have never heard an explanation of why we reject Sola Scriptura?

You should get Patrick Madrid’s book (small book) Where is that in the Bible and Tell me This! He gives lots of scripture verses and is concise.

 

[Cinette]

Hey dude, welcome back. The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants (or anybody else) goes to hell for lack of being Catholic. The saying “no salvation outside the church,” has been abused by both Catholics and Protestants alike. It goes back to St. Cyprius, around 100 AD, when there was only one Christian community; i.e., the Catholic (universal) Church. It means there is no salvation outside the “Body of Christ” and Protestants ARE part of the Body of Christ. Virtually all of Christ’s teachings come from “love your neighbor as yourself,” and even non-Christians who do their best to live their lives in that manner are “implicit” Christians and therefore included in the Body of Christ. Of course we believe that it’s easier to live your life in that manner if you’re Catholic, go to Mass and pay attention. Some of the finest people I’ve known aren’t even Christians, but their deportment and the manner in which they serve their neighbors and communities are perfect examples of what Jesus taught us. Believing that such people, or anybody else, would go to hell for simply not being Catholic (or Christian) violates even common sense.

I like your post. This is exactly how I have always been taught and what I believe. You put it very well.

 

[peary1]

I am back. I have been gone for a month, I do believe, and I have decided, to come abck and learn more about the RCC.

Here is somethign I have had conflict with, and a subject that ticks me off (sorry, but it does, not gonna lie):

If your not in RCC, does the RCC believe you burn in hell, if you never become a Catholic?

No.

I have heard that if your baptized in believer’s baptism, your a Catholic, thats right, isn’t it? (Yes, the father, son, ghost words)

Believer’s Baptism is a protestant term, not a Catholic term. When one is baptized into Christ’s Church, original sin is taken away from one’s soul through sanctifying grace which is now infused within.It is as if Christ says to us, "You are mine."

 

[RC_Matt]

Believer’s Baptism is a protestant term, not a Catholic term. When one is baptized into Christ’s Church, original sin is taken away from one’s soul through sanctifying grace which is now infused within.It is as if Christ says to us, “You are mine.”

That’s correct, and baptism into Christ’s Church does not specifically refer to baptism in the Catholic Church either. It means baptism by any Christian community, i.e., Baptist, Lutheran, etc. People entering the Catholic Church, who have been baptised in another Christian tradition, are not baptised again.

 

[Trishie]

**According to the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church, LUMEN GENTIUM, solemnly promulgated by his holiness Pope Paul v1 **on November 21,1964

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.

Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

I’m glad you’re back.

I’ve prayed for you, Trishie

 

[Trishie]

Dear Christian Knight
I hope you are well.
I hope the post is helpful in seeing what the Church actually says

According to the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church, LUMEN GENTIUM, solemnly promulgated by his holiness Pope Paul v1 on November 21,1964

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*)
   For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*)

They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.

Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*)

Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

God bless you, Trishie

 

[ChristianKnight]

Question: Does the RCC believe that the only people that can hear god are only priests/pope?

Question: How does the RCC know that only their mass has the holy spirit and not a protestant church?

 

[Cinette]

Question: Does the RCC believe that the only people that can hear god are only priests/pope?

Question: How does the RCC know that only their mass has the holy spirit and not a protestant church?

I believe you are pulling our legs with your question! Or maybe this is a tease!!

The Catholic Church believes that ALL baptised people who love God are God’s children.

"I have other sheep that are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well, and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock since there is one shepherd." John 10:16

I believe that the Holy Spirit works through all people - even Muslims.

Read that verse above and you will see that God looks after his flock. His ways are not our ways. Who can understand God?

 

[RC_Matt]

Question: Does the RCC believe that the only people that can hear god are only priests/pope?

Of course not.

Question: How does the RCC know that only their mass has the holy spirit and not a protestant church?

That is not a belief held by the Catholic Chruch. The Holy Spirit is operative everywhere; similarly, Jesus is present for all Christain communities (see Matthew 18:20).

As I recall you were going to try to make a Rosary; if you gave it a shot, how’d it turn out?

 

[JRKH]

Question: Does the RCC believe that the only people that can hear god are only priests/pope?

No. All may hear God speak to them and lead them. The issue becomes one of being sure it is indeed God and not “someone else”, either ourselves (ego) or the Evil one.

Question: How does the RCC know that only their mass has the holy spirit and not a protestant church?

Do you mean the “mass” as in the liturgy of the Mass, or are you talking about The Church as Christ instituted it?

I will say that we Know that we are The Church institued By Christ upon the firm Rock of Peter because the force of Historical evidence demonstrates the lineage. Secondly, you must realize that the very term “Protestant” means onw who is “Protesting” - What are they Protesting? The Catholic Church.

I started a Thread recently on Biblical Proof of Church Authority…Tell it to the Church. You might want to take a look at it. There some nicely laid out discussion as well as an analogous look at a “Theoretical” Kingdom left in the hands of s “Steward”.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I see what your saying.

I do not think it very nice to believe people to be ignorant just cause htey don’t see a certain way, I honestly do not think I can ever be Catholic, cause their are so many things that the RCC teaches that is stuff I would never go under.

Sola Scripture, which I believe is a person’s own interpretation of the bible, right?

Something you will need to understand if you are serious about theological study is that the use of terms like ignorance are not attacks, but are technical terms used to describe a specific condition. It takes time to learn and understand this (I’m still learning too).
A number of people who post on these boards (especially with high post counts) will use these terms, not as personal attacks, but rather as term of “precise technical description”. As you learn to read these terms in this manner you will find it easier to understand the points being made.

Peace
James

 

[notacat]

I’m not really sure what you mean by a “mother church,” but Baptists are part of the professing Christian community and share in the promises of Christ, see paragraph 838.

What I’m asking is how the term Mother Church is used when used in the way Catholics often use it. Here are a couple of examples:

***Encyclical of Pope Benedict XV promulgated on 15 September 1920: ***“The voice of Jerome summons those Christian nations which have unhappily fallen away from Mother Church to turn once more to her in whom lies all hope of eternal salvation.”

Pope John XXIII opening address of the Second Vatican Council:* “Mother Church rejoices that, by the singular gift of Divine Providence, the longed-for day has finally dawned when…”*

The statement you quoted by St. Cyprian dates from a time when there was only one Church.

While that statement may come from a much earlier time it was used in the 1995 edition of the* Catechism of the Catholic Church *so wouldn’t that mean the Catholic Church thinks it is still valid?
*
181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).
*

 

[JRKH]

What I’m asking is how the term Mother Church is used when used in the way Catholics often use it. Here are a couple of examples:

***Encyclical of Pope Benedict XV promulgated on 15 September 1920: ****"*The voice of Jerome summons those Christian nations which have unhappily fallen away from Mother Church to turn once more to her in whom lies all hope of eternal salvation."

Pope John XXIII opening address of the Second Vatican Council:* “Mother Church rejoices that, by the singular gift of Divine Providence, the longed-for day has finally dawned when…”*

Holy Mother Church, as used by Catholics would refer to that Church, founded by Christ upon Peter and the Apostles. I refers to the single Church catholic that has held and taught th fullness of the Faith from Pentacost to today. It refers to a Church that is Authoritative and which allows all Christians to follow Christ’s instruction to “Tell it to the Church” when there are disagreements.

Sorry If I’m butting in here, but I hope this clarifies for you.

Peace
James

 

[notacat]

Holy Mother Church, as used by Catholics would refer to that Church, founded by Christ upon Peter and the Apostles.

Thanks for answering my question. If that is the case, and I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church, I don’t understand how so many Catholics can say that believers outside the “Mother Church” are saved. Are believers who are not Catholic considered to be inside the “Mother Church?”

The quote below shows that "all" hope of eternal salvation lies in the “Mother Church.”

***Encyclical of Pope Benedict XV promulgated on 15 September 1920: ***“The voice of Jerome summons those Christian nations which have unhappily fallen away from Mother Church to turn once more to her in whom lies all hope of eternal salvation.”

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for answering my question. If that is the case, and I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church, I don’t understand how so many Catholics can say that believers outside the “Mother Church” are saved. Are believers who are not Catholic considered to be inside the “Mother Church?”

The quote below shows that "all" hope of eternal salvation lies in the “Mother Church.”

***Encyclical of Pope Benedict XV promulgated on 15 September 1920: ****"*The voice of Jerome summons those Christian nations which have unhappily fallen away from Mother Church to turn once more to her in whom lies all hope of eternal salvation."

First allow me the caveat here that my answers are from my own understanding. Others may be able to give better answers but…
I would suggest a bit of caution when reading encyclicals of some age as they may not reflect a fuller understanding or teaching of the Church arrived at later. In this case, the ensyclical was written before the Second Vatican Council. After VAT II the Church has tended to take a more ecumenical outlook. However these Changes have led to some poor understandings among Catholics.

The Problem with your statement that, “many Catholics can say that believers outside the “Mother Church” are saved”, is that it may be their opinion but does not reflect the teaching of the Church. The Church teaches that other Christian religions contain part of the fullness of faith but not all. As a result of this it is more difficult, though not impossible, to attain salvation outside of Holy Mother Church.

Hope this helps

Peace
James

 

[RC_Matt]

Thanks for answering my question. If that is the case, and I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church, I don’t understand how so many Catholics can say that believers outside the “Mother Church” are saved. Are believers who are not Catholic considered to be inside the “Mother Church?”

The quote below shows that "all" hope of eternal salvation lies in the “Mother Church.”

***Encyclical of Pope Benedict XV promulgated on 15 September 1920: ****"*The voice of Jerome summons those Christian nations which have unhappily fallen away from Mother Church to turn once more to her in whom lies all hope of eternal salvation."

I kind of figured this was where you were trying to go, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried to answer your questions charitably. Since you have already decided for yourself what the Catholic Church teaches, despite its not being what the Catholic Church teaches, you really don’t need any further explanation from me.

Peace

 

[notacat]

As a result of this it is more difficult, though not impossible, to attain salvation outside of Holy Mother Church.

Thanks for your kind answer. I’m almost afraid to ask another question as I already angered one person here, but if it is possible to obtain salvation outside the “Mother Church” why did they use this quote in the 1995 Catechism?

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for your kind answer. I’m almost afraid to ask another question as I already angered RC Mat, but if it is possible to obtain salvation outside the “Mother Church” why did they use this quote in the 1995 Catechism?

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

For the answer to that I’m afraid you’ll need to ask someone more knowledgable than I in how the Catachism was arrived at. Your question is beyond my expertise.
I would suggest that you post this question on the Apolgetics Board where I’m sure you’d recieve a satisfactory answer.

Peace
James

 

[peary1]

That’s correct, and baptism into Christ’s Church does not specifically refer to baptism in the Catholic Church either. It means baptism by any Christian community, i.e., Baptist, Lutheran, etc. People entering the Catholic Church, who have been baptised in another Christian tradition, are not baptised again.

As long as it is a valid (Triune) Baptism.

 

[RC_Matt]

For the answer to that I’m afraid you’ll need to ask someone more knowledgable than I in how the Catachism was arrived at. Your question is beyond my expertise.
I would suggest that you post this question on the Apolgetics Board where I’m sure you’d recieve a satisfactory answer.

Peace
James

At the time that statement was made, the one Church was both Catholic (the organizational entity) and catholic (the universal church of Christ). Both attributes applied to the word “Church.” In 1995, after all the divisions that had occurred during the interim, the statement still applied to Catholics, with the word “Church” still having both the “Catholic” and “catholic” attributes. However, for non-Catholic Christians, the statement still applied with the word “Church” having only the “catholic” attribute. Despite varying degrees of theological difference among Christian traditions, there are certain CORE Christian tenets that all Christians believe; and that is what makes all of us members of the “catholic” Church, even if we are not members of the “Catholic” Church.