Back to the question of nude modeling

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So, by the 1970s, you were getting real, explicit hardcore porn. Nudes? Just nudes? Who needs that? So you got to see topless women wearing very little at topless bars and strip clubs, whose only purpose was sexual arousal. So what might have appeared in scholarly journals for gynecologists was now available at any of the nationwide Adult Bookstores. The intent - to create the new Opium Dens, and to begin the planned addiction pattern, and those magazines weren’t cheap, with some being printed on high gloss, heavy, coated paper stock which is very expensive.

Nope, we’re living in a time period where the nude as art is nothing. It doesn’t matter. In the 1970s, the switch was made from getting the equivalent of marijuana and then going on heroin or cocaine.

And it all cost millions of dollars to put the whole thing together, and to keep it running all these years. It was legal, they said. Their high priced lawyers yelled “We have the First Amendment right… to free expression.” Expression of what? Degradation of the dignity of the female, and male, person?

Peace,
Ed
 
Can I get your opinion on something like this?

musetouch.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/4cf22654cad8d45069cd6a62fb242958.jpg

Or this?

differentphotographystyles.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/imsirreal_1.jpg

Would you personally consider these art or pornographic?
I’d say they are art. The visual attention is on the form, not anything sex related.

BTW, one can have clothed (or half-clothed) porn; the clothing can draw visual lines in the same way that the nude’s limbs can. Nude <> porn; clothing <> innocence.

ICXC NIKA
 
Speaking from a purely commercial standpoint - it’s not just work. The model is posed, dressed, even partly, and given props to use, sit or lay on in some cases, like the photo posted earlier. Where do you sell this? And models do get paid, right?

Masterpieces have clear boundaries and limits and standards that qualify them as such.

Peace,
Ed
I’m not sure what your point is. Yes it is work to model. I speak from experience. Every job is different. Anyone in a play, a photo, a TV show, a movie… is going to be poses, dressed, surrounded by props. It is still work.

My point is that as such, it is not an erotic activity for the model, or the photographer or staff, if any for most professional modeling, some of which may require nudity or near nudity at one time or another.

I don’t really know what you mean by a masterpiece having a boundary. Regardless of that, many of them are erotic in nature. What sort of boundary are you talking about, and how would that impact the subject matter.

If you mean that great art is easily distinguished, my response is that many people disagree on what great art is. Sometimes the definition is clear, at other times people vary in their opinions.
 
Art is not a label that is self-imposed. Art has standards. These standards are universal, especially as it regards the nude female form.
I disagree totally with this premise. There is a reason that the definition of art is broad – individuals respond differently to different forms and manifestations of art. This makes universal standards impossible. This is what makes art such an integral part of the human experience.
Let’s take a modern nude photo. Just a single figure. Who decides it is art? The priests of the art community, namely art critics and gallery owners.
No, the consumer of the art. His own opinion is really the only one that matters to him.
To answer your question, there is no reason for nude photography as art anymore.
You are really not in a position to tell other people what elevates their souls and brings them closer to God, or what inspires them, or in which ways they may reach a greater understanding of the human experience.
 
So, by the 1970s, you were getting real, explicit hardcore porn. Nudes? Just nudes? Who needs that? So you got to see topless women wearing very little at topless bars and strip clubs, whose only purpose was sexual arousal. So what might have appeared in scholarly journals for gynecologists was now available at any of the nationwide Adult Bookstores. The intent - to create the new Opium Dens, and to begin the planned addiction pattern, and those magazines weren’t cheap, with some being printed on high gloss, heavy, coated paper stock which is very expensive.

Nope, we’re living in a time period where the nude as art is nothing. It doesn’t matter. In the 1970s, the switch was made from getting the equivalent of marijuana and then going on heroin or cocaine.

And it all cost millions of dollars to put the whole thing together, and to keep it running all these years. It was legal, they said. Their high priced lawyers yelled “We have the First Amendment right… to free expression.” Expression of what? Degradation of the dignity of the female, and male, person?

Peace,
Ed
It’s driven by money, as much as anything. Even so, one art critic’s Mapplethorpe and another critic’s pornographer. A sense of aesthetic can blur that lines between erotic art, and what one might consider “sinful content”, if you will.
 
I’m not sure what your point is. Yes it is work to model. I speak from experience. Every job is different. Anyone in a play, a photo, a TV show, a movie… is going to be poses, dressed, surrounded by props. It is still work.

My point is that as such, it is not an erotic activity for the model, or the photographer or staff, if any for most professional modeling, some of which may require nudity or near nudity at one time or another.

I don’t really know what you mean by a masterpiece having a boundary. Regardless of that, many of them are erotic in nature. What sort of boundary are you talking about, and how would that impact the subject matter.

If you mean that great art is easily distinguished, my response is that many people disagree on what great art is. Sometimes the definition is clear, at other times people vary in their opinions.
My point is this: “classic literature” was called “classic” for clear reasons. As I was growing up, I was encouraged to read “the classics.”

Many people disagree? Really? All that classic art at the Louvre in Paris just snuck in there on its own?

Having studied much art - intention is the root of it. Today, I know of zero reasons to require the model to be partly or totally nude. None.

And it’s not “just a job.” So, this type of work gets published nowhere? Give me a break.

Taking all your clothes off is just a job? And meaningless? I don’t believe that for a second.

It’s only purpose is sexual arousal. Erotic is way off the mark and too subtle. Men look at these sorts of images for one reason: sexual arousal.

Peace,
Ed
 
I disagree totally with this premise. There is a reason that the definition of art is broad – individuals respond differently to different forms and manifestations of art. This makes universal standards impossible. This is what makes art such an integral part of the human experience.

No, the consumer of the art. His own opinion is really the only one that matters to him.

You are really not in a position to tell other people what elevates their souls and brings them closer to God, or what inspires them, or in which ways they may reach a greater understanding of the human experience.
Uh huh. I have no idea what you are talking about. If this is a defense, it is not a good one. I still follow the world of fine art. It is a dictatorship. I’m a consumer of food, I don’t consume art.

The human experience is defined by a small class of dictators in the world of fashion, by editors of art magazines and by heads of ad agencies. They decide, not you, what the perfect body type is, for the moment. They decide, not you, to put out a clothing catalog with a nude young man on the cover. As someone who works in the media, I monitor it almost daily. And you know what? Just like the volume control on a loudspeaker gradually turning up to worse and worse depictions of the nude human form, it’s getting worse and worse.

To my fellow Catholics. Wake up. Nude modelling has zero practical purpose except in a controlled college classroom setting.

Peace,
Ed
 
Uh huh. I have no idea what you are talking about. If this is a defense, it is not a good one. I still follow the world of fine art. It is a dictatorship. I’m a consumer of food, I don’t consume art.
If you engage with art, you consume art. If you do not like that word, pick another one more to your liking – it is of no consequence to me.

I fail to see why anyone should care about the “dictatorship’s” opinions. If a work affects you, then that is enough to determine its importance in your life. That many people find Great Gatsby a great work of literature does not mean I will, nor does it mean that reading it will provide some ethereal benefit to me personally.

Broaden your perspective and please stop asserting the illusory existence of a dominion over a freely-flowing field.
The human experience is defined by a small class of dictators in the world of fashion, by editors of art magazines and by heads of ad agencies. They decide, not you, what the perfect body type is, for the moment.
No, they do not. They tell us what the perfect body type is. Whether we accept indiscriminately, accept critically, or reject that definition lies with the individual, which is what makes art so meaningful: it is an individual experience.

I really cannot even understand the foundation of your argument. It is clear that you are operating on a plane of existence that is fundamentally different from that of other human beings. Please help me understand whence you are coming.
 
So where is it shown? And I ask that you not be specific. Just: on the internet, in a magazine or calendar? Are the models paid? Is any money made from showing/posting the photos either directly to you or from a publication, physical or on the web? I can’t imagine hiring models to pose for anything and not paying them.

Peace,
Ed
 
So where is it shown? And I ask that you not be specific. Just: on the internet, in a magazine or calendar? Are the models paid? Is any money made from showing/posting the photos either directly to you or from a publication, physical or on the web? I can’t imagine hiring models to pose for anything and not paying them.
Voila. I find the nudity in this piece integral to the piece and the message that I take away from it. The fact that I find it artistic is sufficient to make the nudity acceptable.
 
It’s driven by money, as much as anything. Even so, one art critic’s Mapplethorpe and another critic’s pornographer. A sense of aesthetic can blur that lines between erotic art, and what one might consider “sinful content”, if you will.
Nope. It was sinful then and it’s sinful today. The word “erotic” doesn’t mean anything. After viewing Mapplethorpe’s work, I was thoroughly disgusted. Not the homosexual aspect per se, just that “somebody” decided that what was depicted could be crowned as “art.”

My point is simple: you don’t get your work shown as “art” until you get what I can only call the blessing of the gatekeeper - either the art critic, the gallery owner or the head of a magazine.

People don’t get that. I might recommend that you read some of the fine art magazines but, for Catholics, at least, they are pure and utter garbage and not worth anyone’s time. I follow them to see how sick, twisted and perverted they are so I can comment on them based on direct experience.

And there’s no vagueness or relativeness here. It’s very black and white. People don’t buy the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue as art - never. It’s for sexual arousal only. The same for a few low-level pornographic magazines which I will not name.

You pay money and get filth. That’s all you’re getting. It’s sinful.

Peace,
Ed
 
My point is this: “classic literature” was called “classic” for clear reasons. As I was growing up, I was encouraged to read “the classics.”

Many people disagree? Really? All that classic art at the Louvre in Paris just snuck in there on its own?

Having studied much art - intention is the root of it. Today, I know of zero reasons to require the model to be partly or totally nude. None.

And it’s not “just a job.” So, this type of work gets published nowhere? Give me a break.

Taking all your clothes off is just a job? And meaningless? I don’t believe that for a second.

It’s only purpose is sexual arousal. Erotic is way off the mark and too subtle. Men look at these sorts of images for one reason: sexual arousal.

Peace,
Ed
I’m surprised by the cynicism, and bitterness. The human body is beautiful.
 
If you engage with art, you consume art. If you do not like that word, pick another one more to your liking – it is of no consequence to me.

I fail to see why anyone should care about the “dictatorship’s” opinions. If a work affects you, then that is enough to determine its importance in your life. That many people find Great Gatsby a great work of literature does not mean I will, nor does it mean that reading it will provide some ethereal benefit to me personally.

Broaden your perspective and please stop asserting the illusory existence of a dominion over a freely-flowing field.

No, they do not. They tell us what the perfect body type is. Whether we accept indiscriminately, accept critically, or reject that definition lies with the individual, which is what makes art so meaningful: it is an individual experience.

I really cannot even understand the foundation of your argument. It is clear that you are operating on a plane of existence that is fundamentally different from that of other human beings. Please help me understand whence you are coming.
We are all children of God, point one. We all have dignity as males and females. We cannot have that dignity reduced to us being portrayed as mere objects.

Pope John Paul II
Code:
"But there are also works of art, and perhaps even more often reproductions, which arouse objection in the sphere of man’s personal sensitivity—not because of their object, since the human body in itself always has its inalienable dignity—but because of the quality or way of its reproduction, portrayal or artistic representation. The various coefficients of the work or the reproduction can be decisive with regard to that way and that quality, as well as multiple circumstances, often more of a technical nature than an artistic one.

"It is well known that through all these elements the fundamental intentionality of the work of art or of the product of the respective media becomes, in a way, accessible to the viewer, as to the listener or the reader. If our personal sensitivity reacts with objection and disapproval, it is because in that fundamental intentionality, together with the concretizing of man and his body, we discover as indispensable for the work of art or its reproduction, his simultaneous reduction to the level of an object. He becomes an object of “enjoyment,” intended for the satisfaction of concupiscence itself. This is contrary to the dignity of man also in the intentional order of art and reproduction…."
Commentator:

JP2 explicitly says here that there are some works of “art” that naturally and rightfully arouse objection and disapproval in the sensible man or woman. Such works are abhorrent not because of the form of the human body itself but because of a certain quality of the reproduction of the image (perhaps too explicit as in photography or video) or because of the way the nude body is portrayed in the image (e.g. masturbating or positioned provocatively so as to provoke lust).

Peace,
Ed
 
I’m surprised by the cynicism, and bitterness. The human body is beautiful.
Bitterness? Where? If we had gone from Playboy to explicit 24/7 porn on the internet overnight, there would have been a very strong strong reaction against this.

Cynical? I was there in the late 1960s as “artists” demanded more ““freedom”” to explore mature subject matter. Stupid me. I believed them. I thought they had some uplifting, valuable purpose. But it all came out in the wash. Let’s find an excuse to rip a woman’s blouse off to expose her bra. Let’s find an excuse to show a partly nude woman. As the years passed, let’s just find more and more excuses to trash morality, decency and human dignity - while at the same time, smiling at us and telling us: “Oh this is art. Don’t you see it? We needed that rape scene and a pair of bare boobies.” We’re artists and not mere mortals.

Yeah, I was there as the public was told eloquent lies and attempts were made to excuse “”"“art”""" from any sort of moral judgement.

Nothing new here.

Peace,
Ed
 
Bitterness? Where? If we had gone from Playboy to explicit 24/7 porn on the internet overnight, there would have been a very strong strong reaction against this.

Cynical? I was there in the late 1960s as “artists” demanded more ““freedom”” to explore mature subject matter. Stupid me. I believed them. I thought they had some uplifting, valuable purpose. But it all came out in the wash. Let’s find an excuse to rip a woman’s blouse off to expose her bra. Let’s find an excuse to show a partly nude woman. As the years passed, let’s just find more and more excuses to trash morality, decency and human dignity - while at the same time, smiling at us and telling us: “Oh this is art. Don’t you see it? We needed that rape scene and a pair of bare boobies.” We’re artists and not mere mortals.

Yeah, I was there as the public was told eloquent lies and attempts were made to excuse “”"“art”""" from any sort of moral judgement.

Nothing new here.

Peace,
Ed
Slippery slope, indeed. These are the same folks who have argued that nude/semi-nude pre-teens is “art.”
 
Art is not a label that is self-imposed. Art has standards. These standards are universal, especially as it regards the nude female form. Some here are fond of pointing out that a country or countries “allows” this or that. That’s not the issue here.

Meaning no disrespect, but knowing how the world of art and art photography works, there are clear dividing lines. And they are modeled on a religious style hierarchy.

Art critics exist to not only evaluate and criticize art but also to give it direction, no matter how subtly. An example of what I mean comes from recent announcements from a small clique of elite fashion designers and elite publications. Vogue magazine has announced ‘no more photos of skinny models.’ Period. Another reputable publication has announced: “The Return of the Woman.” In that case, a certain body type has been chosen by this priestly class as the “new” standard which all must follow. By the way, the “woman” in this case has a defined, small waist, and defined hips. As opposed to looking more like a stick or two by four.

Let’s take a modern nude photo. Just a single figure. Who decides it is art? The priests of the art community, namely art critics and gallery owners. If your work and name gets the word “important” attached to it in some prestigious art publication, then you and your work are deemed important by others and worthy of showing in a gallery, but only if the gallery owner, another part of the priestly order, agrees. You have been elevated in status, and you now have a chance to be exhibited in one of the Cathedrals of Art - the Art Museum. Your mere appearance there elevates you again. You now have the ability to earn awards, have more gallery showings and even publication in a thick coffee table book with your work printed on the highest quality paper. And interviews, since, in many eyes, knowing your work is not enough. They must know you, your vision and what drives your vision.

To answer your question, there is no reason for nude photography as art anymore. Circa 1952, there were publications designed for art students with nude models. None of the poses were sexually provocative, and the lighting was meant to highlight form - nothing experimental. The expression on the model’s face was either demure and detached or a slight smile. These publications were not meant to exist as pin-up art but as substitutes for a live model for learning the human form. By the way, pubic hair was brushed out.

My point is: at the time, no one knew what was coming. Sincerity and trust meant that some used these publications for the intended purpose, but some did not. Had it stopped at that point, one could make an argument that what was shown was art photography. But it didn’t.

Girlie magazines appeared offering photos of beautiful nude or topless models posed in pleasant surroundings. Again, no pubic hair but “pasties” were added in some magazines, either real, or added to the photo later, to cover the breast nipples. These were mostly girl next door types, but all of these magazines were considered dirty and immoral, as it was obvious that they inspired lust and masturbation.

There was a period where “glamour photography” of nudes was promoted as an art form in the 1950s, and there were name glamour photographers who built elaborate to modest settings to pose their models, sometimes with props or just a bit of strategic covering. And I mean a little bit. They published books with elaborate instructions regarding lighting, f stops, and pushing the contrast in the final print, the effects of color and using single and multiple light sources, and other somewhat scholarly information.

That ended in the 1960s. New girlie magazines featured a lot of nudes and semi-nudes and dispensed with any artistic intent. You bought those for one reason - to masturbate.

Playboy wrapped its picture section of nude and semi-nude models in a “lifestyle” publication. You got articles about the classiest cars, the best in men’s clothing and accessories, interviews with people like Fidel Castro, and art by name artists. It was considered dirty and immoral as well.

I remember how the local moms in the 1960s discovered a neighbor had thrown out a box of old playboys and they knew we boys would be tempted. So they took the box and disposed of it by means that were never revealed.

continued…
Ok.

Can you provide me with an example of a nude photograph that you would consider “art?”
 
I’d say they are art. The visual attention is on the form, not anything sex related.

BTW, one can have clothed (or half-clothed) porn; the clothing can draw visual lines in the same way that the nude’s limbs can. Nude <> porn; clothing <> innocence.

ICXC NIKA
Yes, I too would say it is definitely art.

It would take a pretty twisted individual to get uncontrollable arousal from those pics… especially the second one.
 
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