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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Elements within the OF, such as the Roman Canon, go back practically 1500 years.
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Cristiano
Guest
It is “practically” the same since Gregory the Great minus some "minor"modifications.
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malphono
Guest
Thank you for the clarification. It was quite helpful.
True enough that they cannot be replaced, but they can be copied (and any copyright that may have existed has long since expired). PDF is fast, cheap, and safe. No worries about smudges, etc, beyond the one time the scan is done. A very good way to preserve an irreplaceable volume for posterity.They were not destroyed and they are not available to the public. Only a male Franciscan can get his hands on one. They are very rare, because they were not printed after the late 1960s. Most communities of sisters gave them away. The friars kept theirs. They are usually kept at motherhouses, novitiates, formation houses and theologate libraries. We have one in our small community. It is under lock and key in my cell. If they are damaged by human touch (oil, dirt, sweat, etc) they cannot be replaced. I learned to protect it the hard way. I had a personal copy that I lent to an outsider and I never saw it again. He moved and never gave it back.
Superiors, librarians and formation directors do not let them out of our sight, in a manner of speaking.I don’t open that box everyday to look at it. I just make sure that the box does not leave my cell. Even our novices have never seen it. They’ve asked to see it and I promised them that they will have the privilege of seeing it on the day that they make solemn vows.
Anyway, and FWIW, my interest in the matter is purely academic, and primarily concerns the rubrics and the various aspects of the Ordo Missae (including Holy Week). Neither the Propers, (Seasonal or Sanctoral), nor the kalendar are particularly important for my purposes.
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Rich_C
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I don’t know if you’re aware, but the tone of your last few posts has been very condescending. Why get so angry about this when surely anyone reading this thread can go read a book or an Internet article that answers the question? When they do, they’ll see that the answer is complex, but not the way you state it.
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triumphguy
Guest
If I was “having a go” I would have said “Douay-Rheims Bible”
I thought referencing KJB would be a clue!
Probably, reflecting on why I joked, it’s because there seems so much over sensitivity to discussion of the form of the mass.
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TrueLight
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There is a nice chart floating somewhere that shows the minor changes to the Mass over the centuries as compared to the complete revamp of the mass that took place in the 60’s. Anyone have it?
Disclaimer: I’m not referring to the particular mass of any Religious orders.
Disclaimer: I’m not referring to the particular mass of any Religious orders.
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JM3
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TrueLight
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Yes exactly. Patrick is amazing.
Now back to our regular scheduled programming.
I know there was a chart posted right on CAF. Unfortunately, I can’t find it.
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Brooklyn
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I’m suppose to buy and read an entire book before I respond to you? Are you kidding?
I’ll read an article, but an entire book? And on top of it, I’m suppose to spend at least $5 to do so? This is the only proof you can use for your argument? This is a joke right?And you can completely disallow a statement by the Cardinal Prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura because he used the word “practically”? This has just got to be a joke, right? He wasn’t giving a class, he wasn’t writing a paper. He was saying that the form of what we call the Extraordinary Form is “practically” the same as it was from the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great. Yes, there have been some changes, but wouldn’t you expect that over the course of 1500 years?
You still have not answered my question as to how you can make a statement like: “Then if I follow your logic then the OF goes back 1500 years too” That seems like a complete Non Sequitur to me. It is a fact that the EF goes back 1500 years. The OF was created in 1969 by Pope Paul VI. Those are facts, not opinions.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but your posts just make no sense to me.
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Rich_C
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Brooklyn, thank you for stating so clearly what I couldn’t figure out a way to write.
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YoungTradCath
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Why not just use the Seraphic Missal and call it a day?PS. This may be a rumor. There is a Friar of the Immaculate who is an expert liturgist. That part is not rumor. He is. The rumor is that he is working on modifying the existing EF to fist the Franciscans.
The Franciscan family is very pro preserving the EF. However, there is a big conflict between some superiors and the SSPX. They insist on using the old calendar and are adamant that the new calendar is a NO NO. Well, that’s fine for them, because their priests are secular Catholics. That does not work for religious Catholics.
Religious cannot have one community on two different calendars. Imagine a house where someone is celebrating the 3rd Sunday of Pentecost and another is celebrating the 11th Sunday of Ordinary Time, or a house where the feast of St. Francis is a minor feast, while the rest of the order celebrates it as a Solemnity with all the bells and whistles of the Easter Triduum?
That’s a wonderful example. The current EF does not have a triduum for St. Francis of Assisi. It’s a third class feast. The current OF has St. Francis as a memorial. In the Roman - Franciscan Form and Missal, St. Francis is a solemnity, holy day of obligation and it is a three day liturgical celebration that follows the same rhythm as the Easter Triduum. There is the mass that introduces the solemnity. The second day is the Transitus, which is not a mass. It is the same liturgical form as the Good Friday liturgy with the proclamation of the Word, the proclamation of the passing of St. Francis, the veneration of the relic and the distribution of Holy Communion. On the third day is the entrance of St. Francis into Glory, which is the solemn mass of St. Francis with all the bells and whistles of the Easter mass. It has three readings, a sequence, Gloria, white vestments, incense, enough candles to trigger the fire alarm and all the pomp and circumstance that we can muster, depending on how much money we have and how large the community. Even the simplest celebration overshadows a low mass in the EF or a memorial mass in the OF.
What superiors do is to grant permission to use the EF, with the OF calendar. Certain days, such as St. Francis, St. Clare and St. Dominic, which are first class feasts on the EF and solemnities on the OF, we have to tinker with the Tridentine missal to make it fit our pastoral needs or use the current Roman - Franciscan Missal and Breviary. The old Seraphic Missal had all of this built into it. You didn’t have to circumnavigate. It had the propers, readings, and rubrics for the day as did the breviary.
It’s funny, because it kind of takes us back to the prelature business. There is one of the major reasons why an order would never want to be a prelature. Orders have this kind of freedom that prelatures do not have. Superiors in a prelature are governed by the statutes of the prelature. Superiors of an order are governed by the statutes of the order and by the founder of the order, not by the Vatican, local bishop or any other authority. We govern with the consent of the Vatican; but the Vatican does not look over our shoulders nor do we have to report to the Vatican on a regular basis as do prelatures and dioceses. Once they approve the constitutions, we’re good to go. Constitutions are not revised frequently.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
EDIT: Never mind, it was abrogated… Why?
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TimothyH
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Reading the Gospels, saying the Lord’s Prayer, confection and reception of the Eucharist. Surely these things go back 1500 years.
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ProVobis
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Before that, it was just the Mass of the Roman Rite. One language, one Canon, Low, High (Sung), or Solemn High. (and no retranslations
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Brooklyn
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I’ll repeat - the OF was created in 1969 by Pope Paul VI. Yes, certain elements that are found in the EF, which does goes back 1500 years, are also found in the OF. That does not make the OF 1500 years old.
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Rich_C
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Yes several major prayers of the EF were retained in the OF, but that doesn’t make the OF more than 43 years old. Anyway, we’re not comparing them in this thread. We’re just trying to answer the question of the age of the EF.
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JReducation
Guest
I have never seen an explanation. All I know is that Pope Paul VI abrogated it. We are not allowed to ask for explanations, have feelings or opinions on anything a pope or anyone with more dignity than us speaks.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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TradionalWay
Guest
Brother please give me the names of this 2 rites, I would really love to learn more about themPope Innocent gave him an old missal that had a very simple rite. The Franciscans used it for 300 years. Dominicans and Carmelites, each had their own rites.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
That’s an easy one.
The Dominican Rite and the Carmelite Rite.
A bit of history for the Carmelite Rite. Around 1208 the hermits living on Mount Carmel approached the patriarch of Jerusalem, Albert, to give them a rule of life. He wrote a rule for them addressing it to “Brother B” as the man who presented the request did not want his name to be immortalized in the rule. He did not wish to be identified as the founder of the Carmelites as he was just a hermit who lived with them. There existed hermits in the area of Mount Carmel where Elijah went for a long time before they ever requested a rule of life. So the Carmelites do not have a founder. We (I am a Carmelite friar) acknowledge Our Lady of Mount Carmel and the prophet Elijah as our spiritual founders.
When St Albert gave the Carmelites their rule of life he also assigned the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre, that is the rite that was celebrated at the Holy Sepulchre, to them. This has become known as the Carmelite Rite.
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